Top 5 best two-surface horses of the last 20 years

RolloTomasi · #1 10-21-2009, 06:27 PM

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

Indian Charlie · #2 10-22-2009, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?

DaTruth · #3 10-22-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Jovial couldn't run a lick on turf. Hawkster was mediocre on dirt, and Bien Bien wasn't much on dirt either.

Jovial sure could run on dirt however. He was the more highly regarded of two euro imports that came over at about the same time. I know this is easy, but can anyone guess who the other import was without cheating?

In Excess?

RolloTomasi · #4 10-22-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaTruth

In Excess?

Yep.

For those interested in what Jovial could do on turf, see the 1990 Cinema.

Hawkster was a Grade 1 winner on dirt at 2, placed in Strub at 4.

Bien Bien won the Swaps at 3, placed in the Big Cap later on.

RolloTomasi · #5 10-22-2009, 09:14 AM

Marquetry, Tranquillity Lake

The Indomitable DrugS · #6 10-22-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Olympio, Bien Bien, Hawkster, Jovial, opening Verse, Geri, affluent, antespend

I'd say from those horses ... only Geri has a shot at making a top 20.

Olympio is a horse I didn't think of - and one I'm not comfortable rating. He'd be 2nd most likely imo.

Bien Bien was just 1-for-8 on dirt ... and his Swaps win only got a 102 Beyer.

Hawkster did race in '90 - but was 0-for-5 with some bad races. I have him missing the date cutoff.

Jovial was downright terrible in most of his turf races. Multiple last place finishes in alw races.

Opening Verse wasn't much of a dirt horse from what little I remember.

CSC · #7 10-22-2009, 09:47 AM

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

The Indomitable DrugS · #8 10-22-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

If Arazi retired after the BC, I wonder where most of us would put him on this list? He was absolutely brilliant as a 2 yr old on both continents. Hard not to be top 5.

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

CSC · #9 10-22-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

The Indomitable DrugS · #10 10-22-2009, 10:25 AM

There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

CSC · #11 10-22-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There were a lot of total creampuffs around when Cigar was on his epic winning streak.

In terms of longevity I would certainly favor Skip Away over him. In terms of ability I would also favor Skip Away.

I think the big change for Skip Away was he finally got a decent jock on him when Bailey got aboard later in his career, he was ridden more forwardly after Sellers and Santos were jettisoned and it certainly elevated his stature. He was definitely a better horse towards the latter part of his career than earlier when he was soundly beaten by Formal Gold on more than one occasion. The competition argument regarding Cigar is a valid and who knows how it would have panned out had Holy Bull not have been hurt (where we only have half a race to gauge that), I don't hold that against him but I can understand why people would point that out, it's nothing new.

King Glorious · #12 10-22-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Very rare a horse has been great at 2, carried it onto a 3 yr old season and came back at 4 on top of their games. Off the top of my head I can't think of any horse that has done that. Seattle Slew, Affirmed maybe...but I would have to look at their race records. Ghostzapper was brilliantly fast but raced far too sporadically for me to love him as a horse. Respect what he has done yes, but not to the same degree of what Cigar did in terms of longevity and putting himself out there to be beaten.

No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.

CSC · #13 10-22-2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No need to look at their records. Some others that did it off the top of my head:

Gulch, Personal Ensign, Best Pal, Bertrando, Free House, Silver Charm, Bet Twice, Serena's Song, Sharp Cat, Easy Goer, Spectacular Bid

Of course, it all depends on what you call great but those were all grade one winners in each year. Well, Bertrando didn't win a grade one as a 3yo but he did win a grade two and certainly carried his talent over the three seasons.

Personal Ensign was a rarity though I wish she had raced more than the 13 times she did, Serena's Song lost it abit towards the end of her career and was kept around for the earnings record by Lewis/Lukas. Easy Goer was less effective at 4 and though he was a pretty good horse, I am not sure I would put him up there with the elite of all time.

King Glorious · #14 10-22-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He easily wouldn't have been top 5 if he retired after age 2.

Pretty much for the same reason why dominant 2-year-olds never get considered for Horse of the Year honors when there is a 3yo or older horse out there with a real strong resume.

The vase majority of the winners of races like the Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup have been extremely elite horses.

If you look at winners of a race like the Breeders Cup Juvenile ... you see a whole lot of names of horses who otherwise never achieved very much.

But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.

The Indomitable DrugS · #15 10-22-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But Arazi was considered for HOY as a 2yo. He was one of the three finalist that year.

He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...

it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.

King Glorious · #16 10-22-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He deserved to be a finalist because he was an amazing 2yo - who just laughed at our best horses with an amazing move.

However, comparing a 2yo who won a dirt race with a 101 Beyer and real nice 2yo turf races in Europe ... to a horse like this ...

it's like trying to compare Tim Tebow to Dan Marino.

I wasn't comparing him to any horse. Only pointing out a 2yo that did get serious consideration for HOY.

RolloTomasi · #17 10-22-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Opening Verse wasn't much of a dirt horse from what little I remember.

Opening Verse won the Grade 1 Oaklawn as well as the prep (the Razorback, then a Grade 2). He was also 3rd in the great '90 Hollywood Gold Cup.

Jovial went terribly off-form for a couple of years prior to his brief rejuvenation. In the Cinema, he defeated Mehmetori who came back to defeat In Excess next out in the Oceanside. More importantly, in 3rd was Itsallgreektome, who went on a tear the last half of the season, finishing a close 2nd twice to future turf champion Tight Spot (was briefly put up on a reversed DQ in the DM Derby), just getting nipped late by Royal Academy in the BC Mile, before taking the Hollywood Derby and Hollywood Turf Cup late in the year to be named Eclipse champion turf horse.