Who holds the clockers in the mornings and odds makers accountable?

Duvalier · #1 10-19-2009, 09:06 AM

Sometimes it is the barn hiding workouts and the clocker is only reporting the actual workout time. Maybe the filly wasn't asked to do too much so as not to tip their hand in the morning with the hopes of cashing a bet.

I don't know the specifics with the horse you're talking about so I'm not insinuating this is what happened...but to blame the clocker and morning line maker isn't really justified. Really is nothing new...it has happened many times before at just about every race track in the country at one time or another.

kgar311 · #2 10-19-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Sometimes it is the barn hiding workouts and the clocker is only reporting the actual workout time. Maybe the filly wasn't asked to do too much so as not to tip their hand in the morning with the hopes of cashing a bet.

I don't know the specifics with the horse you're talking about so I'm not insinuating this is what happened...but to blame the clocker and morning line maker isn't really justified. Really is nothing new...it has happened many times before at just about every race track in the country at one time or another.

Im calling foul, if your horse is really working 103 and change in the mornings how do you know what you have? When every one unloaded on this horse where they simply guessing that this might be a good horse? Not one work justified that this horse open up even money especially a first time 2year old filly starter coming out of the 12 hole.

Scav · #3 10-19-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311

Im calling foul, if your horse is really working 103 and change in the mornings how do you know what you have? When every one unloaded on this horse where they simply guessing that this might be a good horse? Not one work justified that this horse open up even money especially a first time 2year old filly starter coming out of the 12 hole.

You sometimes know. It is also the other way around. They can work lights out and then throw duds in the afternoon.

Works on paper mean absolutely NOTHING. I only look at the progression if that is even there.

A perfect example is something that is happening at Keeneland. There has been a bunch of horses that have been coming off layoffs and they have had only one work on the page, it is because they have been working on the guys farm or a layup facility, and those places don't have to give times.

King Glorious · #4 10-19-2009, 09:35 AM

I totally understand where kgar is coming from. There was simply nothing to indicate that horse should have been even money to open up. She was the co-sixth choice on the m/l (with three other horses) yet she opened at even money and ended up as the 5/2 favorite. Your first thought was that someone has come and put some money on her. Maybe they've been tipped that she's better than her m/l and is really live. When she ran away and hid from them, I was surprised but not really questioning it. These things happen, especially with firsters when nobody really knows what to expect. Then you see that winner's circle and think about those odds and you realize that everyone and their mother knew what to expect. I don't know that the clockers did their job incorrectly because those might have been actual work times. But, IMO, the odds maker did not do their job properly. Whether it was on purpose or an honest mistake, I couldn't say but there clearly was a strange feeling, and I'd even say it was a negative feeling, about the whole thing.

Duvalier · #5 10-19-2009, 09:22 AM

Looking at the horse and it's prior workouts...back to back bullets going 4 furlongs at Churchill in September would give somewhat of a hint of talent.

dellinger63 · #6 10-19-2009, 09:35 AM

If they were trying to 'hide' something they didn't do a good job as the filly opened at even money. And Battaglia ( think he makes the ML ) can't be responsible for knowing every horse on the grounds.

kgar311 · #7 10-19-2009, 09:49 AM

The funny part about the whole thing was all the people in the winners circle just made the win bet. They were obviously there to make a win bet on a sure thing and get their picture taken.

Check out the Pick4 payoff

5/2 5/2 8-1 3-1
$2 ticket paid $4624.40

GBBob · #8 10-19-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgar311

The funny part about the whole thing was all the people in the winners circle just made the win bet. They were obviously there to make a win bet on a sure thing and get their picture taken.

Check out the Pick4 payoff

5/2 5/2 8-1 3-1
$2 ticket paid $4624.40

I'm trying to folow your logic, but you can't mean that because they had a large group of people, they expected to win? Obviously there was some knowledge of this horse based on what it opened at, but you have too many slipperly slopes about this, IMO.

NTamm1215 · #9 10-19-2009, 09:57 AM

As far as the Pick 4 payoff, it was high without question based on a win parlay but remember that two huge favorites were beaten in the sequence and I don't think Hot Cha Cha played like 8-1 in the multi-race plays.

There were certainly not a great deal of Pick 4 players who chose to beat both Warrior's Reward and Gozzip Girl.

NT

kgar311 · #10 10-19-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBBob

I'm trying to folow your logic, but you can't mean that because they had a large group of people, they expected to win? Obviously there was some knowledge of this horse based on what it opened at, but you have too many slipperly slopes about this, IMO.

Im glad that you think everything is on the up and up here Bob. Lets just chalk this up to good handicapping by the betting public and not letting those 103 workouts by a 2yr old filly staring for the first time out of the 12 hole get by them.
I will never underestimate the smarts of the betting public again and never ever will I bet against a favorite as long as I live.

Payson Dave · #11 10-19-2009, 10:04 AM

hmmmmm.... I really should just stay out of this thread... but I will say that the time of a workout is much less important than how it is accomplished... what were the splits??... slow early then fast late???... under a strangle hold or being urged to give all by the rider???... in company or working alone??.... if in company with whom???... how was the gallop out for the next furlong or two???

There is a saying about making assumptions.....

Sightseek · #12 10-19-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

hmmmmm.... I really should just stay out of this thread... but I will say that the time of a workout is much less important than how it is accomplished... what were the splits??... slow early then fast late???... under a strangle hold or being urged to give all by the rider???... in company or working alone??.... if in company with whom???... how was the gallop out for the next furlong or two???

There is a saying about making assumptions.....

I haven't seen any other track do this, but Keeneland is offering clocker's comments:
http://ww2.keeneland.com/racing/Lists/copy/intoday.aspx

As far as this particular filly goes, they had commented on TVG that the word was out that she was a runner and McPeek is obviously having a fantastic meet this fall.

parsixfarms · #13 10-19-2009, 09:19 AM

I'm not going to justify some of the backstretch shenanigans that go on (this is another area where a Trackus-like system would help in terms of transparency), but if the race is the second leg of the pic-4 and the track has rolling doubles (Keeneland does), they will often provide a better clue than the morning line. Of course, if the race is the third or fourth leg of the sequence, you are really betting "on the blind."