Summer Bird could be HOY

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No because he was simply a pretty good horse period.

I don't buy that for a second. He ran against some very crazy pace scenarios after he returned from Dubai last year in his dirt races. They were all either insanely slow, or on one occasion, crazy fast. Neither one is very conducive to running big figures like he did as a three year old.

That said, he still won them all.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't buy that for a second. He ran against some very crazy pace scenarios after he returned from Dubai last year in his dirt races. They were all either insanely slow, or on one occasion, crazy fast. Neither one is very conducive to running big figures like he did as a three year old.

That said, he still won them all.

And that makes him an alltime great?

[cmorioles]

I never said he was an all time great. But he was certainly better than a pretty good horse. I imagine you would kill to have a pretty good horse, let alone one of Curlin's ability...as would any trainer.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I never said he was an all time great. But he was certainly better than a pretty good horse. I imagine you would kill to have a pretty good horse, let alone one of Curlin's ability...as would any trainer.

No Jackson did which was the point of the original post. That any trainer would want to train a horse that made 10 million is besides the point. I find is amusing that less than a year ago Curlin's "fans" and connections were calling him the greatest horse since.... and yet here we are less than a year later and RA has seemingly passed him on the greatest horse measures. And you have to believe that besides recency that his flop in the BC has to play a factor in that. The truth is that he had a very nice career but never did any thing truly extraordinary.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No Jackson did which was the point of the original post. That any trainer would want to train a horse that made 10 million is besides the point. I find is amusing that less than a year ago Curlin's "fans" and connections were calling him the greatest horse since.... and yet here we are less than a year later and RA has seemingly passed him on the greatest horse measures. And you have to believe that besides recency that his flop in the BC has to play a factor in that. The truth is that he had a very nice career but never did any thing truly extraordinary.

Curlin was a top tier grade 1 horse and even a better talent. He was capable of extraordinary running. Grade 1 quality horses are rare enough he was certainly a cut above the average G 1 talent. And CJ or I will never or have ever called him an all time great. Rachel is without question an all time great. And it has absolutely nothing to do with beating Macho Again in the Woodward.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Curlin was a top tier grade 1 horse and even a better talent. He was capable of extraordinary running. Grade 1 quality horses are rare enough he was certainly a cut above the average G 1 talent. And CJ or I will never or have ever called him an all time great. Rachel is without question an all time great. And it has absolutely nothing to do with beating Macho Again in the Woodward.

I'm sure that you will howl in protest but I dont think next year will go so swimmingly for her. I do predict that Jackson avoids 1 1/4 races all year. Hopefully SB and QR also stick around and stay healthy so we can have some semblance of an older horse division.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sure that you will howl in protest but I dont think next year will go so swimmingly for her. I do predict that Jackson avoids 1 1/4 races all year. Hopefully SB and QR also stick around and stay healthy so we can have some semblance of an older horse division.

Which 10f races should she go in? I suggested starting her at GP at 8 in the GP handicap..Then look to the most prestigous mile race in America.. After that you need to start to get her a little break and maybe a softer spot against her own at 9..Remember there are two wonderful 3 year old fillies that maybe VERY worthy competition.. So going in the Phipps and then the Go for Wand are certainly reasonable especially if she is stretching out.. Then two for the next 3 should be strongly considered in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC.. Then the Classic at CD.. Who else has dirt?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sure that you will howl in protest but I dont think next year will go so swimmingly for her. I do predict that Jackson avoids 1 1/4 races all year. Hopefully SB and QR also stick around and stay healthy so we can have some semblance of an older horse division.

I have no clue how she will fair next year. Sometimes they get better sometimes they would be better off in foal?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No Jackson did which was the point of the original post. That any trainer would want to train a horse that made 10 million is besides the point. I find is amusing that less than a year ago Curlin's "fans" and connections were calling him the greatest horse since.... and yet here we are less than a year later and RA has seemingly passed him on the greatest horse measures. And you have to believe that besides recency that his flop in the BC has to play a factor in that. The truth is that he had a very nice career but never did any thing truly extraordinary.

I agree with some of that. But to say he had a nice career is a bit of an understatement. He won the Preakness in his what, 5th career start? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic as a 3yo, then trounced the field in the world's richest race.

Very, very few horses show up in February in a 3 year old maiden race and do the things he did the rest of the year. While he didn't beat much at 4, he certainly did at 3.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I agree with some of that. But to say he had a nice career is a bit of an understatement. He won the Preakness in his what, 5th career start? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the BC Classic as a 3yo, then trounced the field in the world's richest race.

Very, very few horses show up in February in a 3 year old maiden race and do the things he did the rest of the year. While he didn't beat much at 4, he certainly did at 3.

True but in 1980 that would mean a lot more than now. Winning older horse races in the fall as a 3 yo really isnt much of an accomplishment when the 3 yos are better horses. No one is saying that his career was anything but successful, hell he only finished off the board 1 time but compared to truly accomplished horses he doesnt really stack up that well. Plus the way he tailed off and struggled with clearly inferior horses at the tail end of a 16 race career is telling.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

True but in 1980 that would mean a lot more than now. Winning older horse races in the fall as a 3 yo really isnt much of an accomplishment when the 3 yos are better horses. No one is saying that his career was anything but successful, hell he only finished off the board 1 time but compared to truly accomplished horses he doesnt really stack up that well. Plus the way he tailed off and struggled with clearly inferior horses at the tail end of a 16 race career is telling.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't say he struggled because he was tailing off. In each race, the others obviously knew he was the horse to beat and rode to try to beat him. The pace was very, very slow in the Foster and JCGC and he still overcame it. In the Woodward, it was insanely fast.

You should know margin of victory doesn't always indicate how superior a horse is. Of course, those who think RA can't get 10f based on the results of the Preakness and Woodward are making the same mistake.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

And that makes him an alltime great?

Of course it does.

Beating Macho Again stamps your ticket as well.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Of course it does.

Beating Macho Again stamps your ticket as well.

Well there are a lot of all time greats out there then