"Spaced" Races And "Fresh" Horses Are Killing The Sport

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Prepping a horse for a 2 year old sale and racing it as a 2 year old not only has a different goal, but a different approach. I don't think you can use the one to discredit the other.

That is not true. The preparation for a 2 year old sale is almost identical to the way they would prepare a horse for a race. They train the horses exactly the same way that they would prepare him if they were going to run him and try to win first-time out.

For the consignor, the preview( the under-tack workout for prospective buyers) is like a regular race. The consignor prepares the horse so that they will peak on the preview day. The faster the works at the preview, the more money the horse will go for. In addition, the consignor has all the same concerns as a trainer preparing a horse to run. Both the trainer and the consignor have to walk the fine line of working the horse hard to enough to get it ready for a peak performance, but not working the horse so hard that the horse will get injured. If a consignor gets a horse to work a quarter of mile in :21 1/5 at the preivew, that won't do the consignor any good if the horse doesn't come out of the work in one piece. Even if the horse works great, nobody will pay top dollar if the horse comes out of the work with an injury. A trainer preparing a 2 year old to race has the same concerns. It does him no good for the horse to win has debut by 5 lengths if the horse is going to come out of the race hurt and need 6 months off.

but i've seen comments from many regarding buying two year olds at those sales...that they essentially have to re-train the horse. that all they've been taught is go go go so as to get that fast furlong work. then you have to break them of that, teach them to take their cues from the rider...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig2

but i've seen comments from many regarding buying two year olds at those sales...that they essentially have to re-train the horse. that all they've been taught is go go go so as to get that fast furlong work. then you have to break them of that, teach them to take their cues from the rider...

That doesn't happen very often. We've bought alot of horses out of 2 year old sales and I can only think of one who always wanted to "go go go", and it took a long time to get him over that. But even with this horse, I can't say that his bevavior was necessarily a result of what he was taught training for the sale. We sent the horse to the farm for 3 months after the sale. Then we started him in very light training and he bucked his shins. To make a long story short, he didn't really do any serious training until he was a 3 year old so it was a full year after the 2 year old sale. The problem was when we would work him. He was fine galloping but when we would work him he wanted to go full-speed. He only knew two speeds, slow gallops or full-speed. He didn't know how to something in between. You could argue that this was a result of what he learned aat the 2 year old sale but I'm not so sure. It was a year later and he was the only horse that would do this. So it may not have had anything to do with what he learned at the 2 year old sale.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

That is not true. The preparation for a 2 year old sale is almost identical to the way they would prepare a horse for a race. They train the horses exactly the same way that they would prepare him if they were going to run him and try to win first-time out.

For the consignor, the preview( the under-tack workout for prospective buyers) is like a regular race. The consignor prepares the horse so that they will peak on the preview day. The faster the works at the preview, the more money the horse will go for. In addition, the consignor has all the same concerns as a trainer preparing a horse to run. Both the trainer and the consignor have to walk the fine line of working the horse hard to enough to get it ready for a peak performance, but not working the horse so hard that the horse will get injured. If a consignor gets a horse to work a quarter of mile in :21 1/5 at the preivew, that won't do the consignor any good if the horse doesn't come out of the work in one piece. Even if the horse works great, nobody will pay top dollar if the horse comes out of the work with an injury. A trainer preparing a 2 year old to race has the same concerns. It does him no good for the horse to win has debut by 5 lengths if the horse is going to come out of the race hurt and need 6 months off.

As long as any injury (bucked shins etc) shows up after the sale the seller is only concerned with 1 fast workout. Many top trainers have told me that sale 2yo's are often poor propsects because they are so rushed and need several months off after the sales. The trainer preparing a baby to race is not only looking to the debut but to races beyond. They want to win, but they also want to teach the horse, to help him develop. They want to have a horse left the next day and the next week. The seller at the 2yo sale wants the fast work and wants to sell him before any issues occur. They don't have that "allowance in the next condition book" or "the stake at the end of the meet" in mind.
I receive several catalogs a year from vaious partnerships. They cost thousands to produce. I get gorgeous photos, pedigree analysis and comments from top trainers. I also get notes from the general manager saying "Filly X is currently at Aiken, recovering from bucked shins..." proudly offered a $XXX/share."

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Linny

As long as any injury (bucked shins etc) shows up after the sale the seller is only concerned with 1 fast workout. Many top trainers have told me that sale 2yo's are often poor propsects because they are so rushed and need several months off after the sales. The trainer preparing a baby to race is not only looking to the debut but to races beyond. They want to win, but they also want to teach the horse, to help him develop. They want to have a horse left the next day and the next week. The seller at the 2yo sale wants the fast work and wants to sell him before any issues occur. They don't have that "allowance in the next condition book" or "the stake at the end of the meet" in mind.
I receive several catalogs a year from vaious partnerships. They cost thousands to produce. I get gorgeous photos, pedigree analysis and comments from top trainers. I also get notes from the general manager saying "Filly X is currently at Aiken, recovering from bucked shins..." proudly offered a $XXX/share."

You are forgetting about what the original debate was about. Phalaris was saying that the best way to keep horses sound and to make them last is by running them 10-12 times as a 2 year old including racing them in February and March of their 2 year old year. That would be much harder on them than what they go through at a 2 year old sale. Don't get me wrong, I think they are very hard on these horses at the 2 year old sales. I think the horses are forced to do far more than they are ready for. Whenever we buy a horse out of a 2 year old sale, we send them straight to the farm. They need a good rest after the sale. But when we buy a horse that we deem to be relatively sound at a 2 year olds sale, I think he will have a good chance of lasting and having a good, long career. If you told me you were going to buy a yearling and try to run him 10-12 times as a 2 year old including races in February and March, I would tell you that your horse has practically no chance of lasting and no chance to be a good older horse.

A fairly sound horse who comes out of a 2 year old sale who is given a nice rest after the sale, has a far greater chance of having a good career than a horse who runs 10-12 races as a 2 year old. It's not even close.

[Linny]

I began following racing in earnest in '74. A friend of my dad's got me into the history of the game at that point. I read about top 2yo's like Nashua, Tom Fool, Native Dancer, Buckpasser, Northern Dancer etc who all became top 3+ racers. I saw horses like Secretariat, Riva Ridge, Affirmed, Foolish Pleasure, Honest Pleasure, Alydar all have full 2yo season and then return as top class 3yo's.
Today, a horse who's a stakes winner at 2-3-4 is a rarity, if he runs in top class competition. I am not sure the cause of the trend. Relative newcomers see the trend and assume that it's "the way it's always been done" and that's what they do. I think that several factors have influenced the breed.
1.) The Breeders' Cup-a great day of racing but overall it has a negative effect on the season.
2.) Breeding to sell-when a higher % of breeders were producing animals to race in their name and then enter the gene pool in their name, long term soundness was more important than commercial viability.
3.) Medication-lax medication rules has allowed horses who were dependent upon meds to succeed into the gene pool. Lasix and other meds have allowed horses which a couple of generations ago wouldn't have been stakes winners to reproduce at a sometimes alarming rate. Thirty years ago a 40 mare book was huge.

These 3 all work together. For example. Forty or so years ago a horse like Ghostzapper would not likely have been bred to a full book his first year. He would not have been considered sturdy enough. A horse that could only race 4x a year would have been a turn off to breeders at any price. The decreasing season produced by "pointing for the Cup" is now accepted and no one sees 'Zappa as weak because of his few starts.
Generations 'Zappa might have bred some mares but no one was covering 100+ mares a season. As such there was more balance in the breed. More sirelines represented meant a sturdier breed.
Using 'Zap is a prime example of meds as well. He raced on Lasix (and surely other meds) and while obviously very fast he was surely quite fragile. Like Unbridled's Song, he'll have many fast but fragile offspring to continue thwe downward spiral of avaerge races per season.

I don't know whats so hard to see about the Breeders Cup having an overall devestating effect on racing indirectly.
The way it works now is to win the BC and be a champion most of the time. Those honors lead to huge revenues in the breeding shed.
WHy beat up your horse all year long only to lose a championship if you don't win the Cup?
The true problem is the bozos who are given votes in the matter. They simply(most) don't follow the sport enough all year long to detremine who had the better year and vote for Cup winners.
Each year Crist or Watchamker do a column after the voting and point out some hysterical(pathetic is more like it) votes that people made. One year a guy voted for a horse owned by Charles Cella(owns Oaklawn) Northern Spur, as a champion and when asked about his vote, turned out the guy was from Arkansas and voted for the horse he said because Cella was a friend of his.
This happens every year.
Trainers have to point for the BC now. Leads to less starts and abbreviated campaigns.
The Bc is a great day and we all love it, but I don't think that it was conceived with the idea that it would ruin grade one racing the rest of the year.
Unfortunately, I don't see things ever going back to the way that they were. So looks like we are stuck. But you certainly can't blame the owners and trainers for playing the game by the new "rules" that they have been given.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't know whats so hard to see about the Breeders Cup having an overall devestating effect on racing indirectly.
The way it works now is to win the BC and be a champion most of the time. Those honors lead to huge revenues in the breeding shed.
WHy beat up your horse all year long only to lose a championship if you don't win the Cup?
The true problem is the bozos who are given votes in the matter. They simply(most) don't follow the sport enough all year long to detremine who had the better year and vote for Cup winners.
Each year Crist or Watchamker do a column after the voting and point out some hysterical(pathetic is more like it) votes that people made. One year a guy voted for a horse owned by Charles Cella(owns Oaklawn) Northern Spur, as a champion and when asked about his vote, turned out the guy was from Arkansas and voted for the horse he said because Cella was a friend of his.
This happens every year.
Trainers have to point for the BC now. Leads to less starts and abbreviated campaigns.
The Bc is a great day and we all love it, but I don't think that it was conceived with the idea that it would ruin grade one racing the rest of the year.
Unfortunately, I don't see things ever going back to the way that they were. So looks like we are stuck. But you certainly can't blame the owners and trainers for playing the game by the new "rules" that they have been given.

What if Belmont ran a "Summer" Breeders Cup-type event in late June or in July with purses close to or at the BC level?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

What if Belmont ran a "Summer" Breeders Cup-type event in late June or in July with purses close to or at the BC level?

Paid for by whom?


And, to be honest, NYRA already does this....it's called Saratoga.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Actually, they do train them for two year old sales just as they would for a race. What you have to understand (you probably do know) is that they breeze/(warm them up) them before they make them gun down the stretch in a two year old in training sale, just as in a race. They gallop around for a bit, and then come blazing down the stretch, just as you would do in a race. You rate, and then you run as fast as you can down. It's not like they just go out there and run for 1/8 of a mile and then they're done in a two year old training sale. Sure more speed is utilized in the two year old in training sales because the faster the horses go, the more that they sell for. The reason the horses are able to run so fast is that it is not the same as being in a five and a half or six furlong race...they don't have to utilize their speed that far. Is it hard on the young horses..absolutely..

[Cannon Shell]

If you trained your 2 year old racehorses like a 2 year old sales horse, you would not have very many left to be three year old racehorses.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you trained your 2 year old racehorses like a 2 year old sales horse, you would not have very many left to be three year old racehorses.

That's not true. Most of the good consignors do not push their horses in the workouts before the preview. Most of the horse only have 1-2 workouts before the preview. If we are talking about a horse who works :10 1/5 at the preview, he probably only worked in :11 breezing before that. The consignors want the horses to peak at the preview. If they give them a really hard work before the preview, the horse might get hurt. The good consignors are not going to take that chance. They basically prepare the horse the same way they would prepare him for a race. If they were going to prepare the horse for a 5 furlong race, if they gave the horse any 5 furlong workouts, the workouts would probaly be in 1:01 even though the horse would run the race much faster than that. The horse may run the race in :58 2/5 but the trainer isn't going to work him that fast in preparation.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

That's not true. Most of the good consignors do not push their horses in the workouts before the preview. Most of the horse only have 1-2 workouts before the preview. If we are talking about a horse who works :10 1/5 at the preview, he probably only worked in :11 breezing before that. The consignors want the horses to peak at the preview. If they give them a really hard work before the preview, the horse might get hurt. The good consignors are not going to take that chance. They basically prepare the horse the same way they would prepare him for a race. If they were going to prepare the horse for a 5 furlong race, if they gave the horse any 5 furlong workouts, the workouts would probaly be in 1:01 even though the horse would run the race much faster than that. The horse may run the race in :58 2/5 but the trainer isn't going to work him that fast in preparation.

Rupe baby you are way off on this one. Remember that once entered in a sale they have a d-day that things have to be right on. They dont stop on them or back off if they have issues, they plow through and make them work. Just the amount of vet work alone done on these babies in jan/Feb/March is enough to give pause before buying one of these used cars. There is a big difference in how you get a baby ready to sell or to race.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Rupe baby you are way off on this one. Remember that once entered in a sale they have a d-day that things have to be right on. They dont stop on them or back off if they have issues, they plow through and make them work. Just the amount of vet work alone done on these babies in jan/Feb/March is enough to give pause before buying one of these used cars. There is a big difference in how you get a baby ready to sell or to race.

I'm not way off here. Not only do I buy horses at these sales but we sell them too. If a horse has an injury, we will back of and withdraw him from the sale.

They will often times back off if the horse has issues. If the horse has sore shins they will go on with him. But if the horse has a serious problem, they will back off. Nobody is going to buy a horse with a serious problem.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not way off here. Not only do I buy horses at these sales but we sell them too. If a horse has an injury, we will back of and withdraw him from the sale.

They will often times back off if the horse has issues. If the horse has sore shins they will go on with him. But if the horse has a serious problem, they will back off. Nobody is going to buy a horse with a serious problem.

YOU may do these things but the vast majority of sales trainers dont.

Define serious problem.

If you are selling then let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen vet work done on a 2 year old at the sale that would not been done if that horse was not in a sale?