Breeders Cup Turf winners 1999-2008

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Really? The same Johar whose biggest win in America prior to the BC was the Hollywood Derby over Mananan McLir?

These are the PPs for Turf winners between 96 and 2005. http://www.drf.com/bc/2005/pps/winners/turf.pdf

I'll try to grab the PPs for Red Rocks, English Channel, and Conduit but there's no way Johar was better than maybe one or two of the others on that 99-2005 list.

NT

There's more to it than just what is on paper. I followed this horse closely since he broke his maiden and I was convinced early on, and still am convinced, that was a tremendously talented horse.

He did lose way too often though, I'll give you that. One thing that I really liked about him was his turn of foot. He kind of reminded me of a male version of Toussaud, without the mental issues. Awesome acceleration.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There's more to it than just what is on paper. I followed this horse closely since he broke his maiden and I was convinced early on, and still am convinced, that was a tremendously talented horse.

He did lose way too often though, I'll give you that. One thing that I really liked about him was his turn of foot. He kind of reminded me of a male version of Toussaud, without the mental issues. Awesome acceleration.

Johar was in the midsts of pronounced progression late in his 3yo year, and his first start of 2003 (victory of elder The Tin Man) looked as though it would be a springboard to much greater things. A shoulder injury derailed everything.

His two losses prior to the BC, hardly humiliating defeats, could easily be seen as "racing into form" preps for the Turf.

Its not hard to imagine the horse being at least the equivalent of another American like Bien Bien in terms of accomplishments, had he stayed healthy.

[brockguy]

The top 4 and bottom 2 were pretty clearcut i thought. The rest are all in a heap.

Johar wasnt a good horse. He benefitted, I thought from the bad ride Daryll Holland gave the very iffy stayer Falbrav, Kinane had to go earlier than he would have and was nearly nicked on the line.. I was very keen on Red Rocks the year he won it (He is probably one of the reasons I am welcomed over to Arlington and other places ), but he just isnt a good horse..

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by brockguy

The top 4 and bottom 2 were pretty clearcut i thought. The rest are all in a heap.

Johar wasnt a good horse. He benefitted, I thought from the bad ride Daryll Holland gave the very iffy stayer Falbrav, Kinane had to go earlier than he would have and was nearly nicked on the line.. I was very keen on Red Rocks the year he won it (He is probably one of the reasons I am welcomed over to Arlington and other places ), but he just isnt a good horse..

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

On the basis of his scintillating nose win over Rock Opera in what would have been his final tune-up, I assume?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

On the basis of his scintillating nose win over Rock Opera in what would have been his final tune-up, I assume?

Johar was the type of horse, or was ridden like the type of horse, that almost always fired, often won, but not by much, no matter the competition.

Surely you've been around horse racing long enough to have seen these types before, right?

I can only imagine what his record would have been if he'd been let loose a tad bit earlier in all those close losses where he came flying too late.

Then again, I suppose it is possible he had issues with making the lead too early. That's the only reason I could ever come up with for Solis riding him like he did, other than that I bet him in every one of his losses.

[cakes44]

Since we're talking bad rides now, I'd like to see some rankings of worst BC rides in any turf race. There have been some BEAUTIES, especially from the Euro jocks.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Since we're talking bad rides now, I'd like to see some rankings of worst BC rides in any turf race. There have been some BEAUTIES, especially from the Euro jocks.

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

Spencer gave Powerscourt a really brilliant one, too.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

Murtagh's ride on Soldier gets some amount of bad press over here as well, a way in how not to do team tactics.. but i sort of got what Coolmore were trying to do. Soldier of Fortune isnt quick, he is essentially a grinder, no turn of foot, just a real stayer. I guess they thought if they made it into a real slog from a mile out, he would be the one that would last home. If they went any slower they would be vulnerable to anyone with a turn of foot.

Still it wasnt a good ride, there was the Leger winner who basically got his dream pace scenario due to Coolmore..

Spencer's ride on Powerscourt was awful. He doubled up pretty nicely with Antonius Pius that year!

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

There's a lot hidden in that statement Chuck.. He never raced outside Germany (where he won the Derby) and Italy (where he beat a Dubai World Cup winner!) until September of his 4yo career. After being off for a nearly a year, He was 3rd behind Pride (multple G1 filly) and Alkaased (a Japan Cup winner) in his prep for the Arc, then was 4th in the Arc behind mutiple G1 winners Hurricane Run, Westerner and Bago.

Excluding Johars BC win, you could say Shirocco's 4th in that Arc was better than anything Johar accomplished..

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

I'll not argue Daylami, for obvious reasons.

The others, I could make a case against. I'd liked to have seen more of Kalanisi, so I'm not sure I could make a case against him as well as FL or Conduit.

[King Glorious]

Ranking them strictly based on their Turf wins:

1. Daylami
2. Shirocco
3. High Chaparral
4. Fantastic Light
5. English Channel
6. Kalanisi
7. Red Rocks
8. Conduit
9. Better Talk Now
10. Johar

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

You seem stuck on superficial form. Of course, most on total accomplishment, surpass Johar. But whereas time may mean little in Europe, certainly NA handicappers glancing at the 1:46 flat for the Oak Tree Derby, the record setting 1:57 4/5 for the San Marcos, or the 2:24+ in the BC Turf have to admit he was a serious racehorse, probably more so than Red Rocks and Better Talk Now at the very least.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

Yet he could only muster a dead heat with lowly Johar in the Cup

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

Risking tying Danzig's all time consecutive post mark here, but I'm not sure I understand your post.

By 'rest of his career', I assume you do mean his entire career and not what came after the BC. My answer to that is that horse never really put it all together, and/or was ridden with questionable tactics by Solis.

You can't see how I can put him higher? How about the fact he deadheated the horse almost everyone on here has as the 2nd highest rated horse? Was that just some weird fluke? Did HC just have a bad day? I don't get it.

The only answer you've come up with is that some other horse had a bad ride, which still makes no sense to me.

I will concede to you that HC was a far more accomplished horse than Johar, but no way can I say that HC was the better horse.

Oh, and just how many races of Johar's did you see?