Breeders Cup Turf winners 1999-2008

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I'm getting excited about the Breeders Cup, just looked over the past 10 years turf races. Here's how I'd rank them

1. Daylami 1999 (As good as there is on this list, this is no contest!)

2. High Chaparral 2002/2003 (such a professional no nonsense horse!)

3. Fantastic Light 2001 (Improved every year, so good over 10f or 12)

4. Kalanisi 2000 (Very underrated horse, had some might tussles with Giants Causeway, will probably be the last horse to win the Champion Stakes and BC Turf in the same year?)

5. Conduit 2008 (Some may say he is high enough on this list and benefitted from a suicidal pace last year, but this guy can really motor when in top gear and will make a bold bid to join High Chap as a double winner)

6. Shirocco 2005 (Was an out and out stayer, got his conditions in Belmont, and had a successful 2006 until the Arc)

7. English Channel 2007 (Needed a mudbath to win it, but was a solid enough, consistent horse for his whole career)

8. Better Talk Now 2004 (Rather fortunate winner I thought but he was a great servant to connections and nearly doubled up 2006)

9. Red Rocks 2006 (Famous for this win and beating Curlin. Hasnt really done much more!)

10. Johar 2003 (Played his part in history but it would have been a tragedy had he beaten High Chaparral)

Johar was a much better horse than most people realize. I'd put him quite a bit higher.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Johar was a much better horse than most people realize. I'd put him quite a bit higher.

Really? The same Johar whose biggest win in America prior to the BC was the Hollywood Derby over Mananan McLir?

These are the PPs for Turf winners between 96 and 2005. http://www.drf.com/bc/2005/pps/winners/turf.pdf

I'll try to grab the PPs for Red Rocks, English Channel, and Conduit but there's no way Johar was better than maybe one or two of the others on that 99-2005 list.

NT

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Really? The same Johar whose biggest win in America prior to the BC was the Hollywood Derby over Mananan McLir?

These are the PPs for Turf winners between 96 and 2005. http://www.drf.com/bc/2005/pps/winners/turf.pdf

I'll try to grab the PPs for Red Rocks, English Channel, and Conduit but there's no way Johar was better than maybe one or two of the others on that 99-2005 list.

NT

There's more to it than just what is on paper. I followed this horse closely since he broke his maiden and I was convinced early on, and still am convinced, that was a tremendously talented horse.

He did lose way too often though, I'll give you that. One thing that I really liked about him was his turn of foot. He kind of reminded me of a male version of Toussaud, without the mental issues. Awesome acceleration.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

There's more to it than just what is on paper. I followed this horse closely since he broke his maiden and I was convinced early on, and still am convinced, that was a tremendously talented horse.

He did lose way too often though, I'll give you that. One thing that I really liked about him was his turn of foot. He kind of reminded me of a male version of Toussaud, without the mental issues. Awesome acceleration.

Johar was in the midsts of pronounced progression late in his 3yo year, and his first start of 2003 (victory of elder The Tin Man) looked as though it would be a springboard to much greater things. A shoulder injury derailed everything.

His two losses prior to the BC, hardly humiliating defeats, could easily be seen as "racing into form" preps for the Turf.

Its not hard to imagine the horse being at least the equivalent of another American like Bien Bien in terms of accomplishments, had he stayed healthy.

[brockguy]

The top 4 and bottom 2 were pretty clearcut i thought. The rest are all in a heap.

Johar wasnt a good horse. He benefitted, I thought from the bad ride Daryll Holland gave the very iffy stayer Falbrav, Kinane had to go earlier than he would have and was nearly nicked on the line.. I was very keen on Red Rocks the year he won it (He is probably one of the reasons I am welcomed over to Arlington and other places ), but he just isnt a good horse..

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by brockguy

The top 4 and bottom 2 were pretty clearcut i thought. The rest are all in a heap.

Johar wasnt a good horse. He benefitted, I thought from the bad ride Daryll Holland gave the very iffy stayer Falbrav, Kinane had to go earlier than he would have and was nearly nicked on the line.. I was very keen on Red Rocks the year he won it (He is probably one of the reasons I am welcomed over to Arlington and other places ), but he just isnt a good horse..

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

On the basis of his scintillating nose win over Rock Opera in what would have been his final tune-up, I assume?

[cakes44]

Since we're talking bad rides now, I'd like to see some rankings of worst BC rides in any turf race. There have been some BEAUTIES, especially from the Euro jocks.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

[King Glorious]

Ranking them strictly based on their Turf wins:

1. Daylami
2. Shirocco
3. High Chaparral
4. Fantastic Light
5. English Channel
6. Kalanisi
7. Red Rocks
8. Conduit
9. Better Talk Now
10. Johar

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Johar was in the midsts of pronounced progression late in his 3yo year, and his first start of 2003 (victory of elder The Tin Man) looked as though it would be a springboard to much greater things. A shoulder injury derailed everything.

His two losses prior to the BC, hardly humiliating defeats, could easily be seen as "racing into form" preps for the Turf.Its not hard to imagine the horse being at least the equivalent of another American like Bien Bien in terms of accomplishments, had he stayed healthy.

They werre also in highly unusual 3 and 4 horse fields

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Really? The same Johar whose biggest win in America prior to the BC was the Hollywood Derby over Mananan McLir?

These are the PPs for Turf winners between 96 and 2005. http://www.drf.com/bc/2005/pps/winners/turf.pdf

I'll try to grab the PPs for Red Rocks, English Channel, and Conduit but there's no way Johar was better than maybe one or two of the others on that 99-2005 list.

NT

Whose biggest win was in a suspect American Derby at Arlington and who was basically dusted in all his other graded stakes tries....except when he was running close to Johar.

Not a shining endorsement.

[TropicalStorm]

I think Conduit will repeat this year. I could see Dar Re Mi running in the BC Turf though instead of the Fillie Turf race and I could see Dar Re Mi winning it this year. It will be interesting to see if she runs in the ARC. I doubt she could beat Sea The Stars but at 10-1 I might take a shot with her.