If Zenyatta wins the Classic

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My God I wish this whole open competition thing would stop. Let's assume that Rachel and Zenyatta were both going to be in the Beldame. If you have Careless Jewel or Icon Project and you want to have the easiest chance to win, would you face them in the Beldame or go to the JCGC? The JCGC would be against open company but the Beldame would be the tougher race. The point is that open company doesn't automatically mean it's a tougher race. Polish Navy won the Woodward in 1987. Gulch won the Met Mile in 1987. Both of those were against older males. Neither of them were any match for the top 3yos that year (Java Gold, Alysheba, and Bet Twice) so in that case, did beating older mean more than beating your own division? No. Easy Goer could dominate the Whitney, the Woodward, and the JCGC against older but couldn't beat fellow 3yo Sunday Silence. Winning Colors could beat all of the best males in the Kentucky Derby but was beaten in the Las Virgenes by Goodbye Halo. Stop making so much of a big deal about the age and sex of the competition and look instead at the quality of the competition. If Rachel hadn't been in the Woodward, nobody at all would have been talking with reverence about the quality of that field. But since she beats them, it was an outstanding accomplishment? I don't think so.

i agree that open company, on its own, may not be that big of a deal. but i would like to know how a zenyatta cheerleader can say with a straight face that zenyatta has faced tougher comp this year than rachel has.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i agree that open company, on its own, may not be that big of a deal. but i would like to know how a zenyatta cheerleader can say with a straight face that zenyatta has faced tougher comp this year than rachel has.

I don't believe they can. They can believe Zenyatta is better and I can't necessarily disagree with them. That debate is legit. But who's had the better year, who's beaten the better competition, that debate is way past over. It's Rachel in a landslide.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i agree that open company, on its own, may not be that big of a deal. but i would like to know how a zenyatta cheerleader can say with a straight face that zenyatta has faced tougher comp this year than rachel has.

I guess you might call me a Zenyatta cheerleader, but the bald fact is that while you Rachel cheerleaders were marvelling at that " grueling " first quarter she ran in the Woodward, Zenyatta ran the last quarter in the Hirsch in the identical time and won off a slow pace ...

She has done this more than once--finished in 22 and change, and for the poster that said pace will beat her--she runs the same--fast pace or slow, and it may not be redundant to say that a closer getting up by a head after the speed crawls may excel a pace horse lasting by the same ..

As far as competition, no one can say with a straight face that the male division is any different except for their parts ...

And yes, with the exception of Summer Bird going shorter than his best--someone had to win those G1s ...

But indeed Rachel has added way more accomplishments to her resume, and obviously run a fuller campaign ..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by prudery

I guess you might call me a Zenyatta cheerleader, but the bald fact is that while you Rachel cheerleaders were marvelling at that " grueling " first quarter she ran in the Woodward, Zenyatta ran the last quarter in the Hirsch in the identical time and won off a slow pace ...

She has done this more than once--finished in 22 and change, and for the poster that said pace will beat her--she runs the same--fast pace or slow, and it may not be redundant to say that a closer getting up by a head after the speed crawls may excel a pace horse lasting by the same ..

As far as competition, no one can say with a straight face that the male division is any different except for their parts ...

And yes, with the exception of Summer Bird going shorter than his best--someone had to win those G1s ...

actually, i'm a bit of a cheerleader of hers as well. but my issue is with any poster who acts as tho zenyatta is a great horse whilst rachel is a bum-or as someone wrote, the east coast version of pepper's pride. that i find ridiculous, whether pointed toward the filly or the mare.

as for the male division....some say that it's not as tough right now-so why is rachel the only one who can claim a win? if it's sooo easy, why isn't anyone proving that point? why isn't anyone else showing that it can be done?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

actually, i'm a bit of a cheerleader of hers as well. but my issue is with any poster who acts as tho zenyatta is a great horse whilst rachel is a bum-or as someone wrote, the east coast version of pepper's pride. that i find ridiculous, whether pointed toward the filly or the mare.

as for the male division....some say that it's not as tough right now-so why is rachel the only one who can claim a win? if it's sooo easy, why isn't anyone proving that point? why isn't anyone else showing that it can be done?

That's because most people don't have the balls to try it, not because it's impossible to do. If Jackson hadn't purchased Rachel, we wouldn't have seen her do it but obviously, she's capable. Just in the last three years, we've seen Rags win the Belmont, Eight Belles run second in the Derby, and Rachel win the Preakness. Nobody doubts that Zenyatta is good enough to beat the boys and the reason we've been so upset with her connections is because they don't have the balls to try it. Icon Project would probably be favored in the JCGC. Goldikova will be favored to beat the boys again in the BC Mile. Ventura just beat the boys at Woodbine. I'm not saying that it's the easiest thing to do and that any female can do it. But the lack of opportunities shouldn't be confused with the lack of ability to do it if given the opportunity.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Danzig

actually, i'm a bit of a cheerleader of hers as well. but my issue is with any poster who acts as tho zenyatta is a great horse whilst rachel is a bum-or as someone wrote, the east coast version of pepper's pride. that i find ridiculous, whether pointed toward the filly or the mare.

as for the male division....some say that it's not as tough right now-so why is rachel the only one who can claim a win? if it's sooo easy, why isn't anyone proving that point? why isn't anyone else showing that it can be done?

Please know that I do not bash one to raise up the other ..

I frankly think they are both terrific ...

I fail to see the Pepper's Pride analogy via Rachel---Rachel is not undefeated and has won at more than one locale--did you mean Zenyatta ???? I have seen that--GAG ...

To the question why isn't anyone else doing it ???

In the old days there were not so many lucrative spots for fillies and mares as there are today--so more were run against males ...

It is generally acknowledged that in SOME circumstances, males have the edge--so why risk the whole pot for a portion of the pot or less against the boys ...

Rachel was so spectacularly better than her own sex group, and the males in general so unspectacular, that Jackson saw a perfect opportunity to go for it---I would have myself ...

This was a less daring plan than running Cicada against Ridan, or Silver Spoon in the Derby, or Azeri in the BCC, Glorious Song against Spectacular Bid and more, and a better opportunity for success ..

It was gravy and it was golden --taking NOTHING away from Rachel ....

Pity the Mosses didn't do this with their mare ...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by prudery

Please know that I do not bash one to raise up the other ..

I frankly think they are both terrific ...

I fail to see the Pepper's Pride analogy via Rachel---Rachel is not undefeated and has won at more than one locale--did you mean Zenyatta ???? I have seen that--GAG ...

To the question why isn't anyone else doing it ???

In the old days there were not so many lucrative spots for fillies and mares as there are today--so more were run against males ...

It is generally acknowledged that in SOME circumstances, males have the edge--so why risk the whole pot for a portion of the pot or less against the boys ...

Rachel was so spectacularly better than her own sex group, and the males in general so unspectacular, that Jackson saw a perfect opportunity to go for it---I would have myself ...

This was a less daring plan than running Cicada against Ridan, or Silver Spoon in the Derby, or Azeri in the BCC, Glorious Song against Spectacular Bid and more, and a better opportunity for success ..

It was gravy and it was golden --taking NOTHING away from Rachel ....

Pity the Mosses didn't do this with their mare ...

copying wrote she was the east coast version of pepper's pride. and i'm certainly not including every zenyatta fan in the group that tears down one in order to make the other look better. you were certainly not on my mind when i wrote the earlier post.

and yeah, i've said more than once as well that it's a shame the mosses won't try it. but she's theirs, they can do as they please.

[copying]

Originally Posted by Danzig

copying wrote she was the east coast version of pepper's pride. and i'm certainly not including every zenyatta fan in the group that tears down one in order to make the other look better. you were certainly not on my mind when i wrote the earlier post.

and yeah, i've said more than once as well that it's a shame the mosses won't try it. but she's theirs, they can do as they please.

I have a lot of admiration for Peppers Pride. A better analogy is: RA is this years' Sightseek but Jess won't make the same mistake and risk her against the best.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by copying

I have a lot of admiration for Peppers Pride. A better analogy is: RA is this years' Sightseek but Jess won't make the same mistake and risk her against the best.

OMG.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by copying

I have a lot of admiration for Peppers Pride. A better analogy is: RA is this years' Sightseek but Jess won't make the same mistake and risk her against the best.

put down the pipe.