Lava Man back in training?

[Kasept]

For those unconcerned about the situation as presented by STD Racing, Wood and O'Neill, recall this: Itty Bitty Pretty

[TalkToTheHoof]

Originally Posted by Kasept

For those unconcerned about the situation as presented by STD Racing, Wood and O'Neill, recall this: Itty Bitty Pretty

From this article, it looks like Itty Bitty Pretty (owned by STD/Wood and trained by O'Neill) was laid up from May 2006 - May 2007, when she suffered an injury during a (comeback) workout at HOL and had to be euthanized.

Does anyone know why she was laid up -- was it due to injuries or? Any similarity to Lava Man's lay up, besides the length of time?

http://www.drf.com/news/article/85104.html

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by TalkToTheHoof

From this article, it looks like Itty Bitty Pretty (owned by STD/Wood and trained by O'Neill) was laid up from May 2006 - May 2007, when she suffered an injury during a (comeback) workout at HOL and had to be euthanized.

Does anyone know why she was laid up -- was it due to injuries or? Any similarity to Lava Man's lay up, besides the length of time?

http://www.drf.com/news/article/85104.html

Think it was a fracture, and the connections said they were going to retire and breed her...

Then she turned up on the worktab...

Then she turned up dead.

[Riot]

Itty Bitty Pretty fractured a splint bone coming out of the Oaks (not an uncommon young horse injury) and the bad injury after coming back from the fractured splint removal layoff was a tibia. Those are not connected.

Lying to Old Friends about getting Lava Man, or not keeping Old Friends informed when the connections changed their mind about retirement, is pretty low, indeed, if that happened.

But I don't care if some owner-trainer combo initially says a horse is being retired right after an injury, but then is brought back after the injury is reassessed, healed, and goes through rehab. I wish more horses would be rehabbed and brought back to racing whenever possible for them.

I think predicting disaster for Lava Man because some other horse somewhere had a different injury and didn't come back 100% doesn't make any sense; and predicting disaster for Lava Man because a previous horse owned by the connections had a career ending injury doesn't make sense, either.

I'm glad to see Lava Man back, and I hope he does well and we get to see him run.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Riot

Itty Bitty Pretty fractured a splint bone coming out of the Oaks (not an uncommon young horse injury) and the bad injury after coming back from the fractured splint removal layoff was a tibia. Those are not connected.

Lying to Old Friends about getting Lava Man, or not keeping Old Friends informed when the connections changed their mind about retirement, is pretty low, indeed, if that happened.

But I don't care if some owner-trainer combo initially says a horse is being retired right after an injury, but then is brought back after the injury is reassessed, healed, and goes through rehab. I wish more horses would be rehabbed and brought back to racing whenever possible for them.

I think predicting disaster for Lava Man because some other horse somewhere had a different injury and didn't come back 100% doesn't make any sense; and predicting disaster for Lava Man because a previous horse owned by the connections had a career ending injury doesn't make sense, either.

I'm glad to see Lava Man back, and I hope he does well and we get to see him run.

I agree. Making that connection between the two cases in that way insinuates that Lava Man will suffer the same fate. That's as ridiculous to me as Shirreffs bringing up Eight Belles and insinuating that Zenyatta can break down if she faces boys simply because Eight Belles did.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I agree. Making that connection between the two cases in that way insinuates that Lava Man will suffer the same fate. That's as ridiculous to me as Shirreffs bringing up Eight Belles and insinuating that Zenyatta can break down if she faces boys simply because Eight Belles did.

It doesn't insinuate Lava Man is a fatality candidate. It doesn't insinuate anything. It relates that the same set of connections have proven to be liars and shown to posses poor judgment when making a prior similar decision.

And as an aside, Riot failed to mention that after injuries in one place, horses regularly favor or overcompensate which can produce stress and injury elsewhere.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

lava is great i hope he does well....

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And as an aside, Riot failed to mention that after injuries in one place, horses regularly favor or overcompensate which can produce stress and injury elsewhere.

Of course that's true, it can happen. Do you have any evidence or indication that was the case with the filly in question?

I doubt it is your position that horses should never be healed, rehabbed and brought back into training after any injury - or is it?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Kasept

For those unconcerned about the situation as presented by STD Racing, Wood and O'Neill, recall this: Itty Bitty Pretty

Come on Steve. This is bad. This is as bad as Shirreffs referencing Eight Belles in defensing his not running Zenyatta against the boys.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Come on Steve. This is bad. This is as bad as Shirreffs referencing Eight Belles in defensing his not running Zenyatta against the boys.

The EXACT SAME SET OF CONNECTIONS had an injured stakes-winning filly who they said they were retiring. That proved to be a lie. In other words, there is a previously established behavior pattern at work here. In this case, they lied to Michael Blowen at Old Friends, and the public, repeatedly about when they were sending the retired Lava Man to Kentucky.

The fact that Itty Bitty Pretty was put down on the racetrack after breaking down catastrophically after being brought back is incidental to the behavior pattern.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The EXACT SAME SET OF CONNECTIONS had an injured stakes-winning filly who they said they were retiring. That proved to be a lie. In other words, there is a previously established behavior pattern at work here. In this case, they lied to Michael Blowen at Old Friends, and the public, repeatedly about when they were sending the retired Lava Man to Kentucky.

The fact that Itty Bitty Pretty was put down on the racetrack after breaking down catastrophically after being brought back is incidental to the behavior pattern.

Let it go Steve..Lava Man is a gelding he hasn't done enough and there is no reason to believe that O'Neil, who is NOT doing this for money, would F with Lava Man. I hope the SOB runs his AeSS off. Go Lava Man

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Let it go Steve..Lava Man is a gelding he hasn't done enough and there is no reason to believe that O'Neil, who is NOT doing this for money, would F with Lava Man. I hope the SOB runs his AeSS off. Go Lava Man

I agree O'Neill wouldn't intentionally endanger Lava Man. But I also thought that about his handling of Itty Bitty Pretty. And then she was dead on the racetrack... O'Neill, who already has a checkered resume, is opening himself up for a ton of criticism by agreeing to train him back. That's his decision and I believe it reflects poorly on him. But this set of connections has lied to the public once and shown poor judgment in a similar scenario. That is established and irrefutable. And the racing-interested public should be reminded of it broadly.

[Lava]

I just hope he does not get hurt. He is one of my all time favorite horse.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I agree O'Neill wouldn't intentionally endanger Lava Man. But I also thought that about his handling of Itty Bitty Pretty. And then she was dead on the racetrack... O'Neill, who already has a checkered resume, is opening himself up for a ton of criticism by agreeing to train him back. That's his decision and I believe it reflects poorly on him. But this set of connections has lied to the public once and shown poor judgment in a similar scenario. That is established and irrefutable. And the racing-interested public should be reminded of it broadly.

I don't know Steve, someone comes to you tells you they want to make your horse feel better. You spend a ton of money getting him to feel better with some new treatment and you see the horse improve 500%. It's not so unbelieveable that the horse loves to race and train. He is a racehorse he always seems to run hard willingly on the track right. So you start him back doing what the horse enjoys you see him thrive. What's the biggie giving him a shot to be what he was? Clearly the horse isn't going into claimers so in all candor what is the big figgin deal if Brett Farve doesn't want to retire yet? I would venture to say that horse is way better off mentally being in training then just getting old in some paddock.

As for if this will somehow excelerate is demise or death. Come on, nobody is looking to kill Lava Man and working 4 f's and breaking a leg is a likely as tripping in the paddock after a truck blows his diesel horn andf spooks him.
Who wouldn't be thrilled to see him race well again? You don't think the horse would rather be running his heart out instead of growing fat and old in some field?

I also don't believe for a minute that this is just about the horse..There isn't any doubt the owners would like to earn from the horse regaining his form but I don't have issue with that either. Wouldn't it be a win,win,win scenario if he would be the old Lava Man...Public, Owners, Horse?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by freddymo

I don't know Steve, someone comes to you tells you they want to make your horse feel better. You spend a ton of money getting him to feel better with some new treatment and you see the horse improve 500%. It's not so unbelieveable that the horse loves to race and train. He is a racehorse he always seems to run hard willingly on the track right. So you start him back doing what the horse enjoys you see him thrive. What's the biggie giving him a shot to be what he was? Clearly the horse isn't going into claimers so in all candor what is the big figgin deal if Brett Farve doesn't want to retire yet? I would venture to say that horse is way better off mentally being in training then just getting old in some paddock.

As for if this will somehow excelerate is demise or death. Come on, nobody is looking to kill Lava Man and working 4 f's and breaking a leg is a likely as tripping in the paddock after a truck blows his diesel horn andf spooks him.
Who wouldn't be thrilled to see him race well again? You don't think the horse would rather be running his heart out instead of growing fat and old in some field?

I also don't believe for a minute that this is just about the horse..There isn't any doubt the owners would like to earn from the horse regaining his form but I don't have issue with that either. Wouldn't it be a win,win,win scenario if he would be the old Lava Man...Public, Owners, Horse?

Of course it will be nice for him to come back anywhere close to good form. That isn't at issue. That will be swell. The problematic aspect about this is that a member of the ownership group knowingly obfuscated the plans for Lava Man and dealt in bad faith for close to a year with the facility where he was going to be retired. He wasn't going to grow old and fat in some godforsaken field... He was going to a retirement farm where the public could enjoy him and interact with him.

If Kenly was going to try stem cell therapy to see how the horse reacted and if his career could be extended, he should have made that clear from the start or whatever point he initiated the treatments. And then it should have been announced that they were going to attempt to bring Lava Man back via the therapy. Instead, they raised expectations that he was going to be coming to Old Friends and gave the racing public a certain message. And now the message has changed. And it's a bad message with potentially embarrassing and damaging consequences.

In an environment where the industry is under a microscope, to use a high profile horse like Lava Man as a guinea pig is a bad idea under the specific circumstances we're looking at... And if people don't understand the whys and wherefores of that, they haven't been paying attention to the climate around the game.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I agree O'Neill wouldn't intentionally endanger Lava Man. But I also thought that about his handling of Itty Bitty Pretty. And then she was dead on the racetrack... O'Neill, who already has a checkered resume, is opening himself up for a ton of criticism by agreeing to train him back. That's his decision and I believe it reflects poorly on him. But this set of connections has lied to the public once and shown poor judgment in a similar scenario. That is established and irrefutable. And the racing-interested public should be reminded of it broadly.

I'm not an O'Neill guy but he is in a tough position here. The horse is coming back no matter what he thinks about it. So wouldn't he rather have the horse in his barn where he can monitor it closely than let it go to another barn where he loses all control over the horse's fate? If Tracy Farmer went and told Nick Zito that he was bringing Commentator back would you really think Nick would refuse and let the horse go to another trainer? I think he would want that horse in his barn so he can closely monitor him instead of letting him go to another barn where the trainer might not be as emotionally attached to the horse and might take more risks.

[Indian Charlie]

Commentator was retired?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The EXACT SAME SET OF CONNECTIONS had an injured stakes-winning filly who they said they were retiring. That proved to be a lie. In other words, there is a previously established behavior pattern at work here. In this case, they lied to Michael Blowen at Old Friends, and the public, repeatedly about when they were sending the retired Lava Man to Kentucky.

The fact that Itty Bitty Pretty was put down on the racetrack after breaking down catastrophically after being brought back is incidental to the behavior pattern.

Thata boy Byk, call them OUT!!