ruffian and rachel

[dean smith]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Give me Go for Wand as the best 3yo filly I've seen followed by Miesque and then Zarkava. Winning Colors is next and then Rachel.

Really? I'm calling b.s. on this one. I think maybe you're just trying to be antagonistic. You're just trying to "go against the grain" and blow our minds with your four top filly picks. Nobody really thinks all four of those fillies were better than RA. Love the hype and the connections or loathe them, her body of work speaks much louder than the others. She hasn't ducked anybody and she doesn't lose. She has dominated her own kind, has soundly beaten the boys her own age, and then graduated from opening up cans of Whupass on colts to opening cans of Whupass on horses. All the way she's done it in dramatic fashion -- whether it be leaving the field 20 lengths behind or gutting it out down the stretch. C'mon. You're a more intelligent guy than that. Please retract your statement.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by dean smith

Really? I'm calling b.s. on this one. I think maybe you're just trying to be antagonistic. You're just trying to "go against the grain" and blow our minds with your four top filly picks. Nobody really thinks all four of those fillies were better than RA. Love the hype and the connections or loathe them, her body of work speaks much louder than the others. She hasn't ducked anybody and she doesn't lose. She has dominated her own kind, has soundly beaten the boys her own age, and then graduated from opening up cans of Whupass on colts to opening cans of Whupass on horses. All the way she's done it in dramatic fashion -- whether it be leaving the field 20 lengths behind or gutting it out down the stretch. C'mon. You're a more intelligent guy than that. Please retract your statement.

I don't know man. You can make a pretty solid case for Go For Wand and Miesque. A fairly compelling case for Winning Colors.

You are probably right about KG with Zarkeva.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by dean smith

Really? I'm calling b.s. on this one. I think maybe you're just trying to be antagonistic. You're just trying to "go against the grain" and blow our minds with your four top filly picks. Nobody really thinks all four of those fillies were better than RA. Love the hype and the connections or loathe them, her body of work speaks much louder than the others. She hasn't ducked anybody and she doesn't lose. She has dominated her own kind, has soundly beaten the boys her own age, and then graduated from opening up cans of Whupass on colts to opening cans of Whupass on horses. All the way she's done it in dramatic fashion -- whether it be leaving the field 20 lengths behind or gutting it out down the stretch. C'mon. You're a more intelligent guy than that. Please retract your statement.

It's funny to me that this group of 3yo males and older horses can be thoroughly maligned as among the worst in memory but then when she beats them, it's said that she's done something great. Nobody is calling Summer Bird an all-time great for beating the same horses. Is it beating Summer Bird that makes her an all-time great? If she wasn't in that Woodward, nobody would have cared about the race or those horses but now because she beat them, it's special? I don't see it. Just because it's not an American tradition to run a 3yo filly against older males doesn't mean that itsomething extra special. If I've watched Zarkava, Goldikova, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl and others do it, and beat better horses while doing it, why would I be overwhelmed by Rachel doing it? Zarkava dominated the top grass runners in the world in the top grass race in the world. She dominated Goldikova and you know how good that one is. I'd rate beating Goldikova higher than beating Macho Again. But maybe that's just me.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's funny to me that this group of 3yo males and older horses can be thoroughly maligned as among the worst in memory but then when she beats them, it's said that she's done something great. Nobody is calling Summer Bird an all-time great for beating the same horses. Is it beating Summer Bird that makes her an all-time great? If she wasn't in that Woodward, nobody would have cared about the race or those horses but now because she beat them, it's special? I don't see it. Just because it's not an American tradition to run a 3yo filly against older males doesn't mean that itsomething extra special. If I've watched Zarkava, Goldikova, Miesque, Ridgewood Pearl and others do it, and beat better horses while doing it, why would I be overwhelmed by Rachel doing it? Zarkava dominated the top grass runners in the world in the top grass race in the world. She dominated Goldikova and you know how good that one is. I'd rate beating Goldikova higher than beating Macho Again. But maybe that's just me.

Not just you ...

The novelty of running out of her sex group has over elevated her ...

She is a terrific horse, but has done nothing to leapfrog her over some on your list, Ruffian, or to be mentioned elsewhere in the same breath as Man O' War ...

So true that this year's 3 year old males were exactly as you described them until Rachel beat them, and the older, pretty similar thoughts there ...

It is ironic, however, that she has been beaten by fillies, though not this year--and the horse that got closest to her until Macho Again, won one race this year, albeit a big one ...

Summer Bird seems to be at best staying--or what is now considered staying,-- and he has the best chance of the 3 year olds to catch her at 10 furlongs if this scenario develops ...

I have immense respect for any horse that actually runs a solid campaign and performs as flawlessly as she has, but to elevate her to Olympia--leapfrogging over the greats of the past--is blatant goo-gooism ...

With all the brouhaha about the " grueling " first quarter she ran in the Woodward, long forgotten is the identical LAST quarter run by another girl ...

Blatherskate ...

[Linny]

I'd rate Zarkava above RA. She beat older males going several distances including 12f in the most coveted race in Europe, the Arc. Miesque was pretty good as well.

Comparing RA to Ruffian is not entirely fair because Ruffian died in early July of her 3yo year. You cannot project what she would have done had she lived and RA does have a full campaign. Of course if you stop the clock at July 6th and compare them it's more fair. If you do so, RA wins for her Preakness win.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

I'd rate Zarkava above RA. She beat older males going several distances including 12f in the most coveted race in Europe, the Arc. Miesque was pretty good as well.

Comparing RA to Ruffian is not entirely fair because Ruffian died in early July of her 3yo year. You cannot project what she would have done had she lived and RA does have a full campaign. Of course if you stop the clock at July 6th and compare them it's more fair. If you do so, RA wins for her Preakness win.

by steve haskin:


Rachel and Euro fillies: no comparison

There have been published comments recently stating that Rachel Alexandra’s conquests over males is not as big an accomplishment as one might think, because it is done all the time in Europe.

It’s true that fillies face and defeat colts on a much more regular basis in Europe than they do in America. Of course, most top-class fillies are forced to run against colts in Europe, due to the lack of group I championship caliber races in the fall. It should be noted that a typical European filly, especially a 3-year-old, is given two or three races in the spring, then has the entire summer off, and returns for two races in the fall. That was Zarkava’s campaign last year; three races in the spring and two in the fall.

Europeans as a whole (Sea the Stars and the top Ballydoyle runners are an exception) do not run steadily throughout the year and have much easier campaigns than American horses. You’d be hard-pressed to find any European filly that has ever defeated males in May, August, and September, as Rachel Alexandra has done.

Almost all the European filly conquests over males come in the fall. They do not win classics and they rarely win a midsummer stakes against males.

For example, no filly has won the English Derby since 1916. There is no record of a filly winning the 2,000 Guineas in modern times, or the French Derby. Only two fillies have won the Irish Derby in at least the last 60 years. No filly has won the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes in 29 years, and the last one that did was a 4-year-old. Only two fillies have won the Eclipse Stakes in at least the last 39 years and they were both 4-year-olds. It's been 33 years since a 3-year-old filly has won the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud. When people say fillies defeat colts in Europe all the time, they are referring to the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, and as stated earlier, those fillies normally are fresher horses at that time of the year, and unlike the French colts, are coming off a competitive group I prep in the Prix Vermeille, while many of the French colts are coming of slowly run, paceless races in short fields in either the Prix Foy for older horses or the Prix Niel for 3-year-olds.

In short, even in Europe, it is extremely rare to see a 3-year-old filly win a classic against males, and almost as rare to see them win a grade I midsummer stakes of championship caliber against males, both of which Rachel Alexandra has done.

It is difficult to compare racing in Europe to racing in America, and what happens across the Atlantic should not serve as a gauge in assessing the accomplishments of a horse in the United States. Rachel Alexandra’s feats this year were unprecedented in modern times — even by European standards

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

by steve haskin:


Rachel and Euro fillies: no comparison

There have been published comments recently stating that Rachel Alexandra’s conquests over males is not as big an accomplishment as one might think, because it is done all the time in Europe.

It’s true that fillies face and defeat colts on a much more regular basis in Europe than they do in America. Of course, most top-class fillies are forced to run against colts in Europe, due to the lack of group I championship caliber races in the fall. It should be noted that a typical European filly, especially a 3-year-old, is given two or three races in the spring, then has the entire summer off, and returns for two races in the fall. That was Zarkava’s campaign last year; three races in the spring and two in the fall.

Europeans as a whole (Sea the Stars and the top Ballydoyle runners are an exception) do not run steadily throughout the year and have much easier campaigns than American horses. You’d be hard-pressed to find any European filly that has ever defeated males in May, August, and September, as Rachel Alexandra has done.

Almost all the European filly conquests over males come in the fall. They do not win classics and they rarely win a midsummer stakes against males.

For example, no filly has won the English Derby since 1916. There is no record of a filly winning the 2,000 Guineas in modern times, or the French Derby. Only two fillies have won the Irish Derby in at least the last 60 years. No filly has won the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes in 29 years, and the last one that did was a 4-year-old. Only two fillies have won the Eclipse Stakes in at least the last 39 years and they were both 4-year-olds. It's been 33 years since a 3-year-old filly has won the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud. When people say fillies defeat colts in Europe all the time, they are referring to the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, and as stated earlier, those fillies normally are fresher horses at that time of the year, and unlike the French colts, are coming off a competitive group I prep in the Prix Vermeille, while many of the French colts are coming of slowly run, paceless races in short fields in either the Prix Foy for older horses or the Prix Niel for 3-year-olds.

In short, even in Europe, it is extremely rare to see a 3-year-old filly win a classic against males, and almost as rare to see them win a grade I midsummer stakes of championship caliber against males, both of which Rachel Alexandra has done.

It is difficult to compare racing in Europe to racing in America, and what happens across the Atlantic should not serve as a gauge in assessing the accomplishments of a horse in the United States. Rachel Alexandra’s feats this year were unprecedented in modern times — even by European standards

I would like to have a chat to Haskin!

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brockguy

I would like to have a chat to Haskin!

It would be pointless. That article shows his bias and provincialism clearly.

People are so caught up that they are forgetting the fact that while Rachel is the first to do this and the first to do that, it's not like she's the one that's been successful after so many others have failed. Look at the Woodward. No 3yo filly had even run in the race in the past 36 years. She's special. There should be no question about that. And she's deservedly put herself into the conversation of best of this or best of that. As more opportunities are given, you'll see these kinds of things start to happen more and more. Take Eight Belles, for example. When she ran second in the Derby, a huge deal was made of it. Then Rags won the Belmont the next year and Rachel wins the Preakness this year. Suddenly, Eight Belles' accomplishment doesn't seem so incredible.