Does Mine That Bird Win Again?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I agree, but today I guy said to me this afternoon that Rachel's better than Ruffian. Now, I don't know what Ruffian beat (before my time), but I do know that the fields that Rachel has beaten don't stack up to what Winning Colors defeated in the Derby (Forty Niner, Risen Star, Private Terms, Seeking the Gold, etc.) or what Rags to Riches defeated in the Belmont (Curlin, Hard Spun).

While I think that Rachel's connections deserve credit for running her against the boys, unless they run her in the Travers, which I highly doubt, they will have opted for the more opportunistic spot each time they tried the boys. Under the circumstances, the Preakness was an easier task than the Belmont, and the Haskell a softer assignment than the Travers. It's a shame that she won't face Zenyatta in a fairly run race.

this is why i try not to compare horses that are still running with those that retired years ago-you know how those from the past finished up, as well as their competition. rachel and company are still a work in progress, and it'll be a few years before we know what their true spot will be.
by the same token, i can't recall the last horse i saw that won with such aplomb in top races vs the best of its peers. rachel doesn't just win, much of the time it's an annihilation-and as i used to read back when, if a horse hasn't got competition they still have the clock. rachel seems otherwordly right now-she's certainly the best 3 yo this year by a wide margin. historically? we need to be patient on that score.

a great horse is a horse that transcends time-a horse that's used as a measuring stick for horses that come later. if in ten, twenty years, people say 'he/she's the best since rachel' then you'll know she was great because she stood the ultimate test-'what have you done lately?' the truly special ones remain in the memory.

[SOREHOOF]

She hasn't beaten Quality Road yet! Track record at Saratoga pretty much in hand. I thought she might scare away the competition in the Travers, but it might shape up even better than I hoped.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

She hasn't beaten Quality Road yet! Track record at Saratoga pretty much in hand. I thought she might scare away the competition in the Travers, but it might shape up even better than I hoped.

Last night, I doubted that she'd contest the Travers. After watching Quality Road's race this afternoon, I feel even more strongly that she won't contest the Travers.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this is why i try not to compare horses that are still running with those that retired years ago-you know how those from the past finished up, as well as their competition. rachel and company are still a work in progress, and it'll be a few years before we know what their true spot will be.
by the same token, i can't recall the last horse i saw that won with such aplomb in top races vs the best of its peers. rachel doesn't just win, much of the time it's an annihilation-and as i used to read back when, if a horse hasn't got competition they still have the clock. rachel seems otherwordly right now-she's certainly the best 3 yo this year by a wide margin. historically? we need to be patient on that score.

a great horse is a horse that transcends time-a horse that's used as a measuring stick for horses that come later. if in ten, twenty years, people say 'he/she's the best since rachel' then you'll know she was great because she stood the ultimate test-'what have you done lately?' the truly special ones remain in the memory.

Unfortunately for her, as good as she's been, and I think she's great, she hasn't been able to face the best of her peers. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned....all out before she could face them.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Unfortunately for her, as good as she's been, and I think she's great, she hasn't been able to face the best of her peers. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned....all out before she could face them.

it's conjecture that they're the best. she's stood the tests thrown at her, they didn't. i'm certainly not going to hold it against her that she hasn't faced horses that may, or may not, have had success in the spring classics. she's beaten everyone she's faced, handily, all year.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's conjecture that they're the best. she's stood the tests thrown at her, they didn't. i'm certainly not going to hold it against her that she hasn't faced horses that may, or may not, have had success in the spring classics. she's beaten everyone she's faced, handily, all year.

I don't hold it against her either and I don't think the results would have been any different had they been around. But I don't think you'd find anyone that would disagree that she hasn't faced the best of her generation.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't hold it against her either and I don't think the results would have been any different had they been around. But I don't think you'd find anyone that would disagree that she hasn't faced the best of her generation.

she is the best of her generation. i want revenge looked average until his two unreal ny races. old fashioned didn't look as good as distances increased. the pamplemousse is hard to quantify...but winning big on synthetics doesn't mean he's the best of his generation-he never faced the best, so how can you give him that moniker? she's faced everything that came at her, and with amazing ease for the most part. i could argue that quality road won the amsterdam in fast time due to the track-i doubt you could say the same for rachel and her fast time in the haskell.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

she is the best of her generation. i want revenge looked average until his two unreal ny races. old fashioned didn't look as good as distances increased. the pamplemousse is hard to quantify...but winning big on synthetics doesn't mean he's the best of his generation-he never faced the best, so how can you give him that moniker? she's faced everything that came at her, and with amazing ease for the most part. i could argue that quality road won the amsterdam in fast time due to the track-i doubt you could say the same for rachel and her fast time in the haskell.

I'm not sure what's being lost in this convo. I know she is the best of this class but if you happen to think that the next best horses in the class are Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, Munnings, Big Drama, and Musket Man, you'd be in the huge minority. I think the overwhelming majority would agree that the next best horses in this year's class after Rachel would include Quality Road, Dunkirk, I Want Revenge, The Pamplemousse, and Old Fashioned before they'd include the ones she has beaten. I'll say it again, I don't think she'd have any more problems with those that she hasn't faced than she has had with those that she has but I think the general consensus would say that she hasn't faced the best of her generation.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Unfortunately for her, as good as she's been, and I think she's great, she hasn't been able to face the best of her peers. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned....all out before she could face them.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that she would be handling The Pamplemousse and old Fashioned....