Which top 4 is a bigger laughingstock?

The Indomitable DrugS · #1 06-30-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Lukas gave Azeri a chance to show everyone, and I was a non-believer before he got her, just how good she really was.

Come on man ... that's bologna.

All Lukas did was put her in a couple of very silly spots... silly spots in which she did not run well. That and he was based in the East and LDS in the West.

She had that great 1:08 and change debut at 17/1 odds - and than she ran 15 straight triple digit Beyers before being removed from LDS.

I know she beat almost nothing ... but she came to the Apple Blossom twice for LDS and Arlington for the BC Distaff - and gave anything in the east a chance to meet her in between.

She gave those double digit weight swings away to a few ok horses and all as well.

It was painfully obvious how good Azeri was before Lukas got her ... and she was just about the same horse for him minus her bad effort in the Phipps.

My problem with Azeri is that she was overrated to the point of sheer annoyance by TVG when she raced in the West for De Soreux.

When Lukas put her in silly spots like the Met and Breeders Cup Classic ... you didn't so much notice that she had the speed of Ruffian, the class of Lady's Secret, and the heart of Personal Ensign ... did you?

Sightseek · #2 06-30-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

When Lukas put her in silly spots like the Met and Breeders Cup Classic ... you didn't so much notice that she had the speed of Ruffian, the class of Lady's Secret, and the heart of Personal Ensign ... did you?

I thought she ran well in the BCC - it was a more interesting spot than putting her in the Distaff.

The Indomitable DrugS · #3 06-30-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I thought she ran well in the BCC - it was a more interesting spot than putting her in the Distaff.

Yeah - it was very shrwed placement.

She was 5th, got beat about 10 lengths at 15/1 odds, with a 109 Beyer.

That year's Distaff was won by Ashado with a 102.

Sightseek · #4 06-30-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yeah - it was very shrwed placement.

She was 5th, got beat about 10 lengths at 15/1 odds, with a 109 Beyer.

That year's Distaff was won by Ashado with a 102.

It all depends on what you want to see - a horse put into challenging spots or put in spots where they could win with ridiculous ease.

Obviously I love Sightseek, but she didn't exactly have the most interesting campaign.

The Indomitable DrugS · #5 06-30-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

It all depends on what you want to see - a horse put into challenging spots or put in spots where they could win with ridiculous ease.

Azeri wasn't a total lock on paper in that years Distaff ... and she was one of my first four or so throwouts in that years Classic.

She was basically beaten 10 with a very good trip at 15/1 odds in a race she probably should have been 50/1 in. As it turned out though - yeah - she probably wins that years Distaff by 2 or 3.

It was a classic case of Lukas overlooking the correct spot to shoot for the moon.

Sightseek · #6 06-30-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Azeri wasn't a total lock on paper in that years Distaff ... and she was one of my first four or so throwouts in that years Classic.

She was basically beaten 10 with a very good trip at 15/1 odds in a race she probably should have been 50/1 in. As it turned out though - yeah - she probably wins that years Distaff by 2 or 3.

It was a classic case of Lukas overlooking the correct spot to shoot for the moon.

No one shoots for the moon (and sometimes hits) like Lukas.

The Indomitable DrugS · #7 06-30-2009, 04:25 PM

Yeah - only because he's had a whole lot to shoot at it with for a long, long, long time.

Chip Wooley can miss with his next 25 and ruin them all badly in the process and he'd still be way ahead of Lukas percentage wise.

Pedigree Ann · #8 07-01-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

It all depends on what you want to see - a horse put into challenging spots or put in spots where they could win with ridiculous ease.

Obviously I love Sightseek, but she didn't exactly have the most interesting campaign.

Horse needed the easy turns at Belmont to run her best. There have been a number of of large, big-striding horses (e.g. Easy Goer) who find the turns on 8f circuits too tight; they have to shorten stride to maintain their balance, while at Belmont they can continue striding out. Obviously, if running against lesser competition they can overcome the difficulty, but if the competition is top notch they can struggle.

King Glorious · #9 06-30-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yeah - it was very shrwed placement.

She was 5th, got beat about 10 lengths at 15/1 odds, with a 109 Beyer.

That year's Distaff was won by Ashado with a 102.

And nobody would have cared about her winning the Distaff for a second time. Whether she raced there or not didn't change the fact that we already knew she was the best older female in the country. The greats become the greats because they are always taking on new challenges, not handling the same ones over and over.

I only wish that Azeri could have been tried in some of those spots in 2003 instead of having to wait another year. As good as she was in 2004, I thought she was better in 2003.

NTamm1215 · #10 06-30-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

And nobody would have cared about her winning the Distaff for a second time. Whether she raced there or not didn't change the fact that we already knew she was the best older female in the country. The greats become the greats because they are always taking on new challenges, not handling the same ones over and over.

I only wish that Azeri could have been tried in some of those spots in 2003 instead of having to wait another year. As good as she was in 2004, I thought she was better in 2003.

If you're trying to argue that a 5th place finish in the Classic did more for Azeri's legacy than winning a 2nd Distaff would have, I couldn't possibly disagree more. She finished 5th, it's not like she contended, even if it was one of the toughest Classic fields ever. I agree with you in general when it comes to trying bold things with exceptionally talented female horses, but this was not a case where Azeri had nothing left to prove. A 2nd Distaff would have been another feather in her cap, or at least more of one than a 5th in the Classic.

I also wasn't certain that she was the best female in the country at that time. She traded decisions with Sightseek (who was a Belmont horse for course) but neither had proven they were decidedly better than the other.

Sightseek · #11 06-30-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If you're trying to argue that a 5th place finish in the Classic did more for Azeri's legacy than winning a 2nd Distaff would have, I couldn't possibly disagree more. She finished 5th, it's not like she contended, even if it was one of the toughest Classic fields ever. I agree with you in general when it comes to trying bold things with exceptionally talented female horses, but this was not a case where Azeri had nothing left to prove. A 2nd Distaff would have been another feather in her cap, or at least more of one than a 5th in the Classic.

I also wasn't certain that she was the best female in the country at that time. She traded decisions with Sightseek (who was a Belmont horse for course) but neither had proven they were decidedly better than the other.

She was more than a Belmont horse, watch her Rampart, Go For Wand the year earlier and Humana Distaff!

NTamm1215 · #12 06-30-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek

She was more than a Belmont horse, watch her Rampart, Go For Wand the year earlier and Humana Distaff!

Well I was referring to 2004, so the Rampart would apply, but I think it's safe to say that Sightseek (from October 2003 to the end) excelled at Belmont.

NT

10 pnt move up · #13 06-30-2009, 04:40 PM

Sightseek got smoked at 2/5 by Adoration in the biggest race of her life, that says it all to me.

King Glorious · #14 06-30-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If you're trying to argue that a 5th place finish in the Classic did more for Azeri's legacy than winning a 2nd Distaff would have, I couldn't possibly disagree more. She finished 5th, it's not like she contended, even if it was one of the toughest Classic fields ever. I agree with you in general when it comes to trying bold things with exceptionally talented female horses, but this was not a case where Azeri had nothing left to prove. A 2nd Distaff would have been another feather in her cap, or at least more of one than a 5th in the Classic.

I also wasn't certain that she was the best female in the country at that time. She traded decisions with Sightseek (who was a Belmont horse for course) but neither had proven they were decidedly better than the other.

Ok, let me ask you this question. Going into the BC, pretty much everyone had Azeri and Sightseek as the 1/2 older females in the country, in either order right? If you thought Azeri was #1 going in and she would have won the Distaff, how would that have changed your opinion of her? If you thought she was #2 going in, how would a win in a Distaff lacking Sightseek have changed your opinion? I don't think a win would have changed opinions either way. However, as close as the race between them was, a loss in the Distaff would have likely cost her the championship. I thought the Distaff was a no-win situation while the Classic was a no-lose situation.