Lukas Handicapping Angle

Rupert, my point exactly. If you are a great trainer you can win with million dollar yearlings or what you have to work with. I could understand if this guy went from 25% winner on the big circuits to 10% if he wasn't buying every horse he wanted. He went from 25% to 3% after he didn't have every expensive horse in the country.

He did revolutinize the sport, but not as a great trainer. He did it by selling big owners into buying every horse he wanted, and have the best trainers working for him (Pletcher) making sure they won.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Lukas still gets great horses. He used to outspend everyone by 50x. Now he just outspends them by 10x. He was at the 2 year old sales last year spending more than anyone. I was sitting right next to him at Barretts last year. He was buying the best horses at the sale for $500,000 a piece. In addition, he bought some really expensive yearlings. He bought one yearling for the Lewises for around $2 million. If a trainer has a $2 million bankroll for a yearling sale, that is a lot of money. You can get some really nice horses for $200,000 a piece. That would buy you 10 really nice yearlings. There are very few trainers that have a $2 million bankroll for a single sale. I would estimate that less than 1% of trainers have that kind of money to spend. Lukas had way more money than that. He spent $2 million on a single horse.
In addition to all the expensive horses he bought last year, he also got a lot of really nice home-breds. He got a bunch of Storm Cats.
It's absurd to say that he doesn't get good horses any more and that he doesn't spend much money any more. It is simply not true. He doesn't have nearly as much money to spend as he used to, but he still has more than 99% of the other trainers.

[Scurlogue Champ]

I honestly have never seen someone so dedicated to making sure everyone knows about something.

It is almost as if Lukas is running for governor and you are his opponent's campaign manager.

Why do you make so much of an effort running Lukas and his horsemanship into the ground? You did it on ESPN, and you are doing it again.

Is there a personal vendetta? I'm sure there are plenty of trainers out there who are idiots that you could attack, it's not like it takes any real education to get your trainers license.

What is your huge problem with Lukas? If it is so severe, why didn't you just go up and tell him what he was doing wrong when you were "sitting right next to him at the Barretts last year?"

I don't understand how, if he has been committing these egregious errors for so long, that all these expert horsemen haven't just walked over and said "Listen Wayne, you are doing this all wrong. Let us professionals who make it on day rates alone show you what is going on here."

I am serious here Richi. Is there something personal, and how has it gotten so bad that no one will tell him?

[Rupert Pupkin]

As I said in a previous post, I don't know what goes on at smaller tracks with $5,000 horses. I'm sure there is a lot of really bad stuff going on in terms of lame horses being forced to run horses breaking down. There is even bad stuff going on at Santa Anita with the cheaper horses. However, Lukas is the only trainer that I am aware that treats good horses like $5,000 claimers. When I say that he treats them like $5k claimers, I am talking about the way he refuses to turn them out and will keep running them even with serious injuries. He basically won't turn them out until they are physically incapable of running. I don't know any other trainer that does that. That is why I can't stand him. He is an absolute butcher.
To answer your question, I highly doubt that many trainers go up to Lukas or any other trainer and tell them that they don't know how to train. That doesn't happen in any field. A doctor doesn't go up to another doctor and tell him that he is a lousy doctor.
The things I tell you about Lukas are not a secret. Everyone on the backstretch will tell you the same thing I'm telling you. Ever since we have had these debates, has anyone in the busines that posts on these boards ever disputed anything that I have said about Lukas? The answer is no. People like Honu and Landson have never had a problem with anything that I have said about Lukas. Whenever they have chimed in to the discussion, they have always agreed with everyting I have said.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

With regard to the poster who said that Lukas' percentage of breakdowns is high because he has a lot of horses, that is totally inaccurate. A trainer that has a lot of horses will have a higher total number of breakdowns, but he will not have a higher percenatge of breakdowns. If one trainer has 1,000 horses over a 20 year period and 50 of those horses break down, that means that 5% of his horses broke down. If another guy had 400 horses and he had 20 horses break down, then that would also be 5%. These guys would have an equal number of breakdowns in terms of percentages.

Okay, but do you have the numbers for Lukas? What % of his horses have actually broken down? What's the average for Frankel, Baffert, Pletcher, etc? Lukas has been the focus of attention going back to before Union City. Once someone gets a bad rep, people tend to remember absolutely every bad thing that happens.

Someone mentioned in passing that Halfbridled and Sweet Catomine didn't have much success in their 3-yr-old seasons either. But no one thinks for a minute that Mandella and Canani are to blame. However, as soon as Folklore is mentioned, well, that's another data point against Lukas.

Rupert, I don't doubt your observations about the way Lukas treats his horses, but I question the conclusion. You are saying that a higher percentage of Lukas's horses break down. Do you have numbers to support that claim?

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

As I have stated before, his percentages of breakdowns is so high that that there are insurance companies that will not insure his horses. I don't have the numbers but the insurance companies have them. In addition, he has more horses get eased and pulled up than anyone. The numbers are stagerring. I don't remember what the exact figure was but his number of horses that ease is around 3x or 4x times higher than the average trainer. The numbers confirm what everyone in the business already knows.

[Buffymommy]

The dude is 70 years old. Give the guy a break! Are you as good at 70 as you are at say 40 or 50? Dang. The dude had no where to go but down. And for those critizing how he trains horses back in his heyday, do you honestly think that the other trainers around weren't doing the same exact thing he was? Not all but more than not.

Give the guy a break. He is in his 70s and starting to slow down. The dude was on top of the world at one time. I still remember when Winning Colors won the Kentucky Derby. (LOVED THAT FILLY as well as his other top filly Lady's Secret). The man has had champions. You may not like how he got there, but he got there nonetheless. Others were probably doing the same things he was training and they didn't get there, he did.

Give the Lukas bashing a rest will ya? Do we have to discuss it every week?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

As I have stated before, his percentages of breakdowns is so high that that there are insurance companies that will not insure his horses. I don't have the numbers but the insurance companies have them. In addition, he has more horses get eased and pulled up than anyone. The numbers are stagerring. I don't remember what the exact figure was but his number of horses that ease is around 3x or 4x times higher than the average trainer. The numbers confirm what everyone in the business already knows.

Again, this could be a combination of selective memory and the number of horses he trains. I don't know how many he is training now, but he used to have an empire. Of course he was going to have 3x to 4x the number of eases as an "average trainer". I know you are asserting that his percentage is also much higher, but, well, I'd like to see figs that support that assertion.

As far as the insurance companies, go...this sounds like 2nd or 3rd hand info. Do we know if it is the big insurance companies that won't insure him?

Again, I am not doubting your observations that Lukas will run horses that shouldn't be running. But I'd need more than anecdotal evidence before I'd condemn him for actually breaking down a higher percentage of horses than his peers.

--Dunbar