Forde and the Ragozin guys weigh in on changing the Triple Crown

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think that a one year reprieve should take away from the obvious need for change. Some people thought that 2007 with Curlin and Hard Spun racing in all three races and still finishing the year strong was proof that it can be done. Of course it CAN be done but the question is IS it being done? More often than not, it's not. And even in that year, Rags ran in the Belmont and only ran once more. Then we got last year and Big Brown wasn't able to finish out the year and another maiden winner won a classic for his only career stakes win. This year, I Want Revenge, Dunkirk, the Pamplemousse, and Old Fashioned (arguably four of the top six contenders going into April) didn't even get a chance to make it through the series and keep going. Another horse with just a maiden win has won the Belmont (that's four times in the past nine years). It is broke. It needs fixing.

You made your own counterpoint. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, Old Fashioned, and The Pamplemousse all represent top horses that were knocked off the trail before the TC, not because of it.

Change the breeding and you fix the problem.

Change the TC and you cheapen the breed.

[Indian Charlie]

Can you imagine if King Glorious ran racing 40 years ago?
I can just see it now.

After the 1948 triple crown was earned by Citation a long time passed without another one. Say KG has his way around 1970 with changing the triple crown. Some of the greatest racing in this country might not have happened.

Shecky Greene wins the 1973 derby blitzing six furlongs in 109.1.

Sham wins the Preakness setting a new track record in 134.3 whole holding off a desperate late challenge from Secretariat.

Finally, we have the true test of champions three months later in the Belmont. Secretariat, not as sharp as he might have been otherwise, nevertheless runs Sham off his feet as he wins the Belmont in spectacular fashion, stopping the timer in an amazing 147.3.

Or wait, since the Preakness was originally a half furlong shorter than the derby, maybe the Preakness would have been run at 5.5 furlongs. Shecky Greene and Mr. Prospector duke it out in a duel for the ages, astonishing the crowd with their incredible combination of both speed and stamina!

Or was that Affirmed and Alydar in the Belmont I'm thinking of? I guess we wouldn't have known that race either, so it doesn't really matter.

While we are at it, I think we should add a two year old turf sprint to the Breeders Cup.

[hockey2315]

"It has been years since we had older gelding stars like Kelso, Forego and John Henry who raced year after year and developed tremendous public followings because they were not thrown to the wolves in their early years."

Really? What about Lava Man, The Tin Man, Evening Attire, Better Talk Now, etc.? (Minus the "tremendous public followings," of course, since that's impossible in this era).

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

"It has been years since we had older gelding stars like Kelso, Forego and John Henry who raced year after year and developed tremendous public followings because they were not thrown to the wolves in their early years."

Really? What about Lava Man, The Tin Man, Evening Attire, Better Talk Now, etc.? (Minus the "tremendous public followings," of course, since that's impossible in this era).

good call, different class of horses but your point is valid.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

"It has been years since we had older gelding stars like Kelso, Forego and John Henry who raced year after year and developed tremendous public followings because they were not thrown to the wolves in their early years."

Really? What about Lava Man, The Tin Man, Evening Attire, Better Talk Now, etc.? (Minus the "tremendous public followings," of course, since that's impossible in this era).

forego ran third in the ky derby behind secretariat and sham. i'm not quite sure what they mean by being 'thrown to the wolves' since i believe kelso ran at two, as did henry.
hell, i hope a horse hurries up and wins the tc so that this bs can stop.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

You made your own counterpoint. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, Old Fashioned, and The Pamplemousse all represent top horses that were knocked off the trail before the TC, not because of it.

Change the breeding and you fix the problem.

Change the TC and you cheapen the breed.

I wouldn't stop with the TC. I'd change the way 2yos and 3yos are raced from the start. I don't think the TC races themselves are what needs to be changed. I don't know where Indian Charlie comes up with me wanting the Derby at 6f or any of that other nonsense though. And perhaps he didn't see Secretariat's Gotham or his Marlboro Cup. Sham wasn't going to beat Secretariat at either of those distances. And as I keep saying, I agree with changing the breed. But I also know that's NOT going to happen. So since that's not going to happen, we have to make the changes elsewhere. You say that changing the TC would cheapen the breed. Have you not noticed how the breed has become weaker and weaker over the years without the TC races being touched? In this country, over 70% of the races are run at one mile or less. It's probably over 90% at 9f or less. There is huge money running less than 10f. The TC races are but three races on the calender. If you were breeding a horse, which would you try to do? Try to breed a horse that's going to excel at the distances of those three races, one of which you'll likely only run once in you life, or try to breed a horse that can fit in the majority of the races that they run during the year? The breed is different because the racing is different. Changing up the way they breed them, the way they train them, the way they race them, the way they medicate them.....and then asking them to do the same thing as horses of 50 and 60 years ago doesn't make sense.

I would change it to first saturday of May, July, and September. These poor horsies get tired and whatnot.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

You made your own counterpoint. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, Old Fashioned, and The Pamplemousse all represent top horses that were knocked off the trail before the TC, not because of it.

Change the breeding and you fix the problem.

Change the TC and you cheapen the breed.

And we have a winner.

[Danzig]

england has gone even longer without a triple winner, the great nijinsky being the last. i doubt anyone there is complaining, feeling the lack, or wanting to change how the races are run.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

england has gone even longer without a triple winner, the great nijinsky being the last. i doubt anyone there is complaining, feeling the lack, or wanting to change how the races are run.

There are quite a few people looking for a change to the triple crown here stating that the st. Leger over 14 1/2 f is just not good for a wouldby stallion. Case in point this year with Sea The Stars highly unlikely to race in the Leger, opting instead to drop down in trip!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brockguy

There are quite a few people looking for a change to the triple crown here stating that the st. Leger over 14 1/2 f is just not good for a wouldby stallion. Case in point this year with Sea The Stars highly unlikely to race in the Leger, opting instead to drop down in trip!

i saw that sea the stars might skip it for something a bit shorter-a shame. but are the shouts for change at all as loud as over here?

[brockguy]

There just seems to be a general acceptence that the triple crown here is no longer the crown jewel of the three year old career! It's been like that for 20 years, it's just again been highlighted due to another guineas/ derby winner!

One interesting point from France is that nearly all the trainers now want to put the French Derby distance back up from 10 1/2 f to 12f. It was dropped in distance in 2005(?).They think it was a drastic mistake and it has essentially become a prep for the 'real' French derby, the grand prix de Paris on Bastille day

[Linny]

Even the Derby (Epsom) is no longer the ultimate test for a potential stallion. Colts that win the Derby are usually promptly dropped back to 10f so that they will have the credibilty they need to earn a future stud career. If Montjeu had not gotten off to a stellar start, his great record at 12f would have certainly been a disadvantage in trying to boost him. Wiinning the St Leger would seem to be the kiss of death for a colt.