Much respect to Mine That Bird

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

He shouldn't dominate the discussion but his detractors are just being ridiculous. No matter the surface, he's not 26 lengths worse than Mine that Bird. Be honest. He's not worse than Luv Guv and Flying Private. He was better than Papa Clem on synthetic and in the Derby and today was destroyed by that horse. Perhaps he's not top 20 of his class on dirt. Perhaps he's best of his class on synthetics. But when a horse runs a race that's obviously well below his par after being very consistent up til then.....they are just being silly. His Derby didn't validate his backers and this Preakness didn't validate his detractors.

And it's not at all possible that this sudden loss of consistancy is because he has finally run over a dry dirt track?

Pioneerof Denial is what he should have been named.

[sdjcom]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

He shouldn't dominate the discussion but his detractors are just being ridiculous. No matter the surface, he's not 26 lengths worse than Mine that Bird. Be honest. He's not worse than Luv Guv and Flying Private. He was better than Papa Clem on synthetic and in the Derby and today was destroyed by that horse. Perhaps he's not top 20 of his class on dirt. Perhaps he's best of his class on synthetics. But when a horse runs a race that's obviously well below his par after being very consistent up til then.....they are just being silly. His Derby didn't validate his backers and this Preakness didn't validate his detractors.

well said

I think it is a good thing Rachel did not
run in the Derby. Mine that Bird is clearly
a tough horse.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

And it's not at all possible that this sudden loss of consistancy is because he has finally run over a dry dirt track?

Pioneerof Denial is what he should have been named.

So then if he faces Flying Private and Luv Guv again on a dry dirt track, you'd pick them over him? Be honest. The truth more than likely lies in the middle. He's not as good as his junk track races would have made it appear but he's not as bad as today either. I mean come on. If you put Forever Together on dirt, she's not going to lose to maiden winners. She'd probably lose to good dirt horses but at some point, talent overcomes the surface doesn't it? If he'd lost to all good horses, that's one thing. He was beaten by LUV GUV!! Come on.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

He shouldn't dominate the discussion but his detractors are just being ridiculous. No matter the surface, he's not 26 lengths worse than Mine that Bird. Be honest. He's not worse than Luv Guv and Flying Private. He was better than Papa Clem on synthetic and in the Derby and today was destroyed by that horse. Perhaps he's not top 20 of his class on dirt. Perhaps he's best of his class on synthetics. But when a horse runs a race that's obviously well below his par after being very consistent up til then.....they are just being silly. His Derby didn't validate his backers and this Preakness didn't validate his detractors.

he's no Luv Guv, and he's been consistent, but I wasn't impressed with the way he looked in his synthetic races. I was surprised by his derby finish. honestly I don't think he is anything special

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by GPK

How wide was he at the top of the stretch?

Not as bad as he could have been. Mike Smith (and I am not a huge fan) ran a terrific race. Rail wasn't open and he picked some small, tight spots with a very gutsy horse.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

he's no Luv Guv, and he's been consistent, but I wasn't impressed with the way he looked in his synthetic races. I was surprised by his derby finish. honestly I don't think he is anything special

That's all I'm saying. He's not special. He's not a world beater. He obviously clearly better on synthetic than on dirt. But he's not as bad as he showed today either. That result wasn't simply a matter of the race being on dry dirt anymore than the result of the Derby being because it was in the slop.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So then if he faces Flying Private and Luv Guv again on a dry dirt track, you'd pick them over him? Be honest. The truth more than likely lies in the middle. He's not as good as his junk track races would have made it appear but he's not as bad as today either. I mean come on. If you put Forever Together on dirt, she's not going to lose to maiden winners. She'd probably lose to good dirt horses but at some point, talent overcomes the surface doesn't it? If he'd lost to all good horses, that's one thing. He was beaten by LUV GUV!! Come on.

Like I said on the other board, he didn't look as comfortable today as in his other races, but that is sort of the big debate with him - He wouldn't improve on dirt and thus far he has shown that is the case.

[Indian Charlie]

I can think of other reasons to account for POTN's race today that don't have anything to do with dirt.

Maybe something happened to the horse?
Maybe he peaked at SA?

I don't know what his story is, but there is no way he is as bad as his finish indicated.

As for Friesan Fire, he had no business running in this race. I read some speculation on here that his hoof injury was minimal and 'probably' was just blood from some minor lacerations on the leg.

I remember reading 4-5 days after the derby that they were using some sort of gunk on his hoof that is commonly used in diabetics with circulation and periphery tissue problems. They said it seemed to be working and if things went well, they would run him.

It really didn't seem possible that either the injury was grossly exaggerated to being with, or even less likely, the grabbed quarter miraculously healed in two weeks.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Larry Jones doesn't own him.

LOL, It is amazing how 5 words can be so well chosen. Larry Jones and his wife are a credit to the game and I dearly hope his time away from it is short.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

That's pretty embarrassing, pushing her out late in the 1st turn and on the backstretch like he did, but, then again, Johnny V stopped riding anywhere near the rail years ago.

Please. The guy race-rode the whole damn field out of the gate.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

he's no Luv Guv, and he's been consistent, but I wasn't impressed with the way he looked in his synthetic races. I was surprised by his derby finish. honestly I don't think he is anything special

He was impressive in that he won.
His last two on syn. were not that great.
The Lewis was a nice one.

They connections said he had put on weight,
he looked really good, his coat was nice, all this
after the Derby. Well he chucked a real clunker.
He had not done that before.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Like I said on the other board, he didn't look as comfortable today as in his other races, but that is sort of the big debate with him - He wouldn't improve on dirt and thus far he has shown that is the case.

And I totally agree with that. Before the Derby, I never once said he would improve. I only said that I didn't think it was automatic that he wouldn't like it and would regress. Now, I'm on the side of those that said he wouldn't like it. But there is a difference between not liking a surface and running bad and not showing up at all. A lot of horses prefer one surface over another but I don't think you go from being a grade one winner on one to not even being able to beat maidens on another.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by GPK

Certianly all Pioneer of the Nile needs is 1 1/2 and the sweeping wide turns of Belmont, right?

He's not going there. Baffert is taking him back to California, give him a little break and look forward to the rest of the year that includes the Breeders Cup in his own backyard.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Mine That Bird certainly got a great pace setup ... but he made an excellent account of himself for sure.

Looks like the tactic of having him jog and loaf through the very early stages has moved him up big time. Obviously.

I'm curious to see how he runs in the Belmont when you can't loaf away the early stages of the race and expect them to come back to you because the pace is often much slower. ... baring the entry of any speed sprinter types like High Finance or baring the entry of a dominant speed router like a Smarty Jones who was forced to brush off an insanely premature middle move from a Malibu winner.

To me RA is a dominant speed router - and I like MTB's Belmont chances better if she runs .. they won't let her have a Da Tara jog on an uncontested lead trip obviously.

Even though I thought RA was a cinch today .. I got burnt because I played against MTB underneath .. and I will eagerly play against him in the Belmont again if RA doesn't run.

RA saw real pace pressure today from a very good and very fresh speed horse coming off of a razor sharp win. Look at the horses who were also wide into the 1st turn and not far behind her ... I believe they were Friesan Fire, POTN, and General Quarters ... all of them were exhusted and beaten by a country mile.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cowgirlintexas

Would have been just what racing needs right now. A filly that might have been the next Triple Crown Winner...

Kinda feel bad for Mine That Bird.

Now yet another year of "what if's" and "might have been's"

Huh? Why think about races not run, when what's right in front of our eyes is pretty first class?

What racing needs right now it's getting, in spades and on national TV - a KY Derby winner who duplicated his impressive performance in the Preakness, but was beaten a length by a filly that just may be among the greats.

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm curious to see how he MTB runs in the Belmont when you can't loaf away the early stages of the race and expect them to come back to you because the pace is often much slower.

I wanted to say this.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I wanted to say this.

I was thinking the same thing. People often think because of the distance that a late closer has the best chance but it's often a situation where a horse is up close and allowed to run along slowly and doesn't come back to them.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by Riot

Huh? Why think about races not run, when what's right in front of our eyes is pretty first class?

What racing needs right now it's getting, in spades and on national TV - a KY Derby winner who duplicated his impressive performance in the Preakness, but was beaten a length by a filly that just may be among the greats.

I think you miss my point of how much "better" it would be now IF she would have run in the Derby or IF she had'nt have run today.

Not taking anything away from her at all or Mine that Bird, just saying that the "what if's" are there.

[CSC]

Mike Smith rode a good race today, the main thing is his ride didn’t cost Mine that Bird the race. But to be accurate it wasn’t a great ride either. Anyone that looked deeper into the race by watching the replay, Mine That Bird had to check or atleast wait on heels when Smith split horses at the top of the stretch causing him to lose a bit of momentum, if he hadn’t RA would have probably still won but by a diminishing length, the result would have been much closer. To me the story of the race was John Velazquez riding to place in the race rather than trying to win it, he certainly wasn’t in a hurry today despite the honest fractions, a very safe ride I would term it, Big Drama pushed Rachel Alexandra but certainly didn’t break her.