kickbacks alleged in suit

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Guys a kickback is defined if you take comissions on both sides without disclosing such things to the parties involved. Its not real bright.
Randall I have never purchased a horse at a sale. Its not my game and sadly I don't think it ever will be. Its a seperate talent from finding one who is already running. Just like Rup's talent of watching two year olds breeze at training sales is another seperate one.

What happens in many of these cases is actually way worse than a kickback. They will call it a kickback, but it's actually stealing. Some trainers will see a horse that they like at a sale. They will go to the consignor and ask the consignor how much they are hoping to get for the horse. Let's say the consignor says that he is hoping to get $600,00 for the horse. The trainer will tell the consignor to bid against him and run the price up to $1 million. Then the trainer and consignor will split that extra $400,000. This is outright thievery. The owner gets cheated out of $400,000. He pays $1 million for a horse that he could have gotten for $600,000.

[Cannon Shell]

It was only a matter of time until these kind of things came to light. I love the part where Baffert claims he knows nothing. Kinda like Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heros.
The real good one is where the trainer/agent actually takes part of the horse to "assure" the owner he is getting a good deal.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What happens in many of these cases is actually way worse than a kickback. They will call it a kickback, but it's actually stealing. Some trainers will see a horse that they like at a sale. They will go to the consignor and ask the consignor how much they are hoping to get for the horse. Let's say the consignor says that he is hoping to get $600,00 for the horse. The trainer will tell the consignor to bid against him and run the price up to $1 million. Then the trainer and consignor will split that extra $400,000. This is outright thievery. The owner gets cheated out of $400,000. He pays $1 million for a horse that he could have gotten for $600,000.

The above is an example of how it works most of the time.....people would be shocked if I mentioned names of trainers and bloodstock agents that I have a VERY knowledgable account of them pulling these kinds of shady deals.....shocked I tell you...I could even nae the sales, the horses and the way it was done - but I obviously would never do that here....I acknowledge these accounts on this forum just to let you understand how FURIOUS I get when I hear or see it happen....

It is the single biggest thing wrong with our industry today IMO...OWNERS PROTECTION (we don't do enough of it) these guys screw (gentle term) the very people that fnd the game and personally patron them as trainers and keep them in business...How cold is that?

An absolute cancer to our game and it WILL eventually kill our game...mark it down, unless something changes....Think about it for a minute...There are too few wealthy persons that are eligible to own horses anyway - say maybe the top 3-to-5 % people in the country and less in the world (percentage wise)....Now, tell these owners - many of whom made their fortunes through SOUND business practice - that they will now be investing in a game that is a 95% chance that they will lose money every year involved based on racing costs and revenues, and is also a high-risk proposition in terms of the actual principle investments itself (the horse(s) ) as far as paying $5,000 - $5 ,illion on an animal that can break down or colis and die at any minute....Adding to the intrigue now, you have these *******s - these opportunist leaches and scumbags of the earth - who are supposed to be your advisors to help you succeed in the game when they are really looking to drain you for every dime you can before you have bad luck and leave them (which is inevitable)....(BTW, I've even heard a VERY famous trainer say that he drains them aggressively early on because you never know how long they'll be with you - referring to rich clients)...Once horse racing is exposed for this type of wide spread scandal beyond the other scandals that already exist in our game, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A GAME YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INVESTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND ENERGY IN?

These *******s are getting rich on ZERO credentials and ruining our great game at the same time...I hope everyone of them gets caught and prosecuted..I really do....we have to come up with a better way to protect our owners before it is too late to where our reputation is such that horse racing will be known as a game of frauds and cheats and one that nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole when it comes to investing in it....scary thought, but think about it..

I don't care how dumb some people are, NOBODY will just sit there and lose their ass in an industry and take it with a smile - I guarantee you that...not even most of the wealthiest people in the world.....and now with all of this stealing and dirty business with trainers and agents with buying horses - I REALLY guarantee that people won't sit back and get humiliated and allow people to cheat them, even if its more principle that money driven...

Let me also say this.....trainers need to accept more responsibilty when it comes to buying horses legitimately too IMO......If you are a trainer and you think a horse is worth $100,000 and want to buy him at a sale and you go to $150,000 to buy the horse because you think you can because it is the owner's cash and not yours - that is wrong and unethicle IMO....Trainers should spend the money as if it was their own, but they don't becasue they are usually lazy and ultimately do not care about what the owner spends for a horse as long as they get to train it....(not all trainers are like this obviously..I'm singling out a popular group that I see this sort of behavior from all the time). I laugh because they raise their hands like its no big deal at all....I watch some of these guys at the auction..a horse will be going $400,000....$450,000....$500,000 and the hands effortlessly go up in the air and I can't hal;p but think to myself with soem of these guys that "Damn, he has never probably even seen $500,000 in his total life - yet he is effortlessy bidding it as if it were like chump change" - how ironic I find that....

This game has ALOT of horrible habits ad traditions that simnply need to be run out...they are cancerous and sometimes as an owner you almost get the fealing as if your are supposed to be f *cked over in this game when this sh it happens....its almost like they expect you to accept it....

The overall fact that the owner economics in this game are WAAAY upside-down suggests that we really need to address this issue fast and make it right...

Think about it...if you were a stockholder in a company that always lost money, wouldn't you sell and find a better investment?..Of course you would....Owners are the lifeblood of the industries...without them there is no product...no horses....no trainers get paid, no jockeys get paid - see where I'm going?

Yet despite that fact, 95% of the owners in our game lose their asses every year while some of the trainers and jockeys get rich....upside-down economics....

Owners pay for everything...the last thing they need now is getting a ram-job from these *******s who claim to be professionals - but are really just fraudulent crook hillbillies that call themselves trainers and bloodstock agents (again, most trainers are probably okay people...as for agents - no comment...I'd never use one...)

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The above is an example of how it works most of the time.....people would be shocked if I mentioned names of trainers and bloodstock agents that I have a VERY knowledgable account of them pulling these kinds of shady deals.....shocked I tell you...I could even nae the sales, the horses and the way it was done - but I obviously would never do that here....I acknowledge these accounts on this forum just to let you understand how FURIOUS I get when I hear or see it happen....

It is the single biggest thing wrong with our industry today IMO...OWNERS PROTECTION (we don't do enough of it) these guys screw (gentle term) the very people that fnd the game and personally patron them as trainers and keep them in business...How cold is that?

An absolute cancer to our game and it WILL eventually kill our game...mark it down, unless something changes....Think about it for a minute...There are too few wealthy persons that are eligible to own horses anyway - say maybe the top 3-to-5 % people in the country and less in the world (percentage wise)....Now, tell these owners - many of whom made their fortunes through SOUND business practice - that they will now be investing in a game that is a 95% chance that they will lose money every year involved based on racing costs and revenues, and is also a high-risk proposition in terms of the actual principle investments itself (the horse(s) ) as far as paying $5,000 - $5 ,illion on an animal that can break down or colis and die at any minute....Adding to the intrigue now, you have these *******s - these opportunist leaches and scumbags of the earth - who are supposed to be your advisors to help you succeed in the game when they are really looking to drain you for every dime you can before you have bad luck and leave them (which is inevitable)....(BTW, I've even heard a VERY famous trainer say that he drains them aggressively early on because you never know how long they'll be with you - referring to rich clients)...Once horse racing is exposed for this type of wide spread scandal beyond the other scandals that already exist in our game, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A GAME YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INVESTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND ENERGY IN?

These *******s are getting rich on ZERO credentials and ruining our great game at the same time...I hope everyone of them gets caught and prosecuted..I really do....we have to come up with a better way to protect our owners before it is too late to where our reputation is such that horse racing will be known as a game of frauds and cheats and one that nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole when it comes to investing in it....scary thought, but think about it..

I don't care how dumb some people are, NOBODY will just sit there and lose their ass in an industry and take it with a smile - I guarantee you that...not even most of the wealthiest people in the world.....and now with all of this stealing and dirty business with trainers and agents with buying horses - I REALLY guarantee that people won't sit back and get humiliated and allow people to cheat them, even if its more principle that money driven...

Let me also say this.....trainers need to accept more responsibilty when it comes to buying horses legitimately too IMO......If you are a trainer and you think a horse is worth $100,000 and want to buy him at a sale and you go to $150,000 to buy the horse because you think you can because it is the owner's cash and not yours - that is wrong and unethicle IMO....Trainers should spend the money as if it was their own, but they don't becasue they are usually lazy and ultimately do not care about what the owner spends for a horse as long as they get to train it....(not all trainers are like this obviously..I'm singling out a popular group that I see this sort of behavior from all the time). I laugh because they raise their hands like its no big deal at all....I watch some of these guys at the auction..a horse will be going $400,000....$450,000....$500,000 and the hands effortlessly go up in the air and I can't hal;p but think to myself with soem of these guys that "Damn, he has never probably even seen $500,000 in his total life - yet he is effortlessy bidding it as if it were like chump change" - how ironic I find that....

This game has ALOT of horrible habits ad traditions that simnply need to be run out...they are cancerous and sometimes as an owner you almost get the fealing as if your are supposed to be f *cked over in this game when this sh it happens....its almost like they expect you to accept it....

The overall fact that the owner economics in this game are WAAAY upside-down suggests that we really need to address this issue fast and make it right...

Think about it...if you were a stockholder in a company that always lost money, wouldn't you sell and find a better investment?..Of course you would....Owners are the lifeblood of the industries...without them there is no product...no horses....no trainers get paid, no jockeys get paid - see where I'm going?

Yet despite that fact, 95% of the owners in our game lose their asses every year while some of the trainers and jockeys get rich....upside-down economics....

Owners pay for everything...the last thing they need now is getting a ram-job from these *******s who claim to be professionals - but are really just fraudulent crook hillbillies that call themselves trainers and bloodstock agents (again, most trainers are probably okay people...as for agents - no comment...I'd never use one...)

Joel I agree with just about everything you say. Its extremely frustrating to be an agent in private sales, attempting to purchase one who has already shown ability on the racetrack, and not be able to get someone to pay 300 grand for a horse who has already shown proven ability, yet see people paying high 6 figures at sales for horses that have almost zero chance of ever earning that much.
I've just never understood that, as hard as I try. I realize that people at yearling sales are buying " dreams" and can fantasize that they just bought the next Smarty Jones(until it debuts of course) but it makes no sense to me and never has.
I wouldn't paint all agents with the same brush. The day that Edmund Gann met Mark Reid was indeed a lucky day for him. Mark buys off the track and purchased medgalia for the neighborhood of 350, and the grade one winning mare You for a pittance, Peace Rules, etc.
Frustration is asking someone if they are interested in a filly who debuts with a solid number and decent pedigree and hearing no, and then seeing them buy a yearling for 800 grand the next week.
I think that painting all agents with the same stroke is unfair. Agents have become specialized in different areas and not all buy at auctions.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Joel I agree with just about everything you say. Its extremely frustrating to be an agent in private sales, attempting to purchase one who has already shown ability on the racetrack, and not be able to get someone to pay 300 grand for a horse who has already shown proven ability, yet see people paying high 6 figures at sales for horses that have almost zero chance of ever earning that much.
I've just never understood that, as hard as I try. I realize that people at yearling sales are buying " dreams" and can fantasize that they just bought the next Smarty Jones(until it debuts of course) but it makes no sense to me and never has.
I wouldn't paint all agents with the same brush. The day that Edmund Gann met Mark Reid was indeed a lucky day for him. Mark buys off the track and purchased medgalia for the neighborhood of 350, and the grade one winning mare You for a pittance, Peace Rules, etc.
Frustration is asking someone if they are interested in a filly who debuts with a solid number and decent pedigree and hearing no, and then seeing them buy a yearling for 800 grand the next week.
I think that painting all agents with the same stroke is unfair. Agents have become specialized in different areas and not all buy at auctions.

Let me rephrase that - agents AT AUCTION...too many of them are in cahoots with consignors and it is simply a matter of running up as much money as possible between the consignors and agents and then chopping it all up at the end of the day - end result: Consignors and Agnets are overpaid for their product and the owner gets his horse paying way more than it was worth......If I would have journaled everytime I have seen this behavior at sales or heard of it first hand, I would probably have a pretty significant binder....damn shame...

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Let me rephrase that - agents AT AUCTION...too many of them are in cahoots with consignors and it is simply a matter of running up as much money as possible between the consignors and agents and then chopping it all up at the end of the day - end result: Consignors and Agnets are overpaid for their product and the owner gets his horse paying way more than it was worth......If I would have journaled everytime I have seen this behavior at sales or heard of it first hand, I would probably have a pretty significant binder....damn shame...

If you can find 300 grand that I ever made buying a horse at a markup, you can keep 298 grand of it and just give me two grand to play the Belmont card tomorrow.
Private buying agents probably work as hard as anyone you ever met in the whole industry. Honing skills to determine what talent is, then having someone teach you residual value(thank you Mr Fox, the guy on Steves radio show lately is the guy who taught me when I was younger), then having to make a thousand phone calls that almost always end with no sale.
Then you have to work hard to find clients who trust you and trainers who trust you.
All for 5-10% of a deal.
I see guys wearing suits at saratoga who are nothing more than guys who are guessing at pedigree getting into Limos and heading to the windows with wads of bills that would choke a horse to make bets. Must be nice.
By the way, I have made offers for someone who is being accused on this thread many times. Hes had me make offers in the multimillions, multiple times, and hes never ONCE asked me to do anything wrong. Never ONCE has he asked me to pad a deal, and when i asked him if I should split a commission from a possible sale with him the first time I made an offer for him, he said no, thats your money if you get it, you earn it. Hes aces in my book. And I can only judge people based on how they have acted towards me and with me in dealings.
I think all sides of the story need to be heard here before anyone judges anyone.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by oracle80

If you can find 300 grand that I ever made buying a horse at a markup, you can keep 298 grand of it and just give me two grand to play the Belmont card tomorrow.
Private buying agents probably work as hard as anyone you ever met in the whole industry. Honing skills to determine what talent is, then having someone teach you residual value(thank you Mr Fox, the guy on Steves radio show lately is the guy who taught me when I was younger), then having to make a thousand phone calls that almost always end with no sale.
Then you have to work hard to find clients who trust you and trainers who trust you.
All for 5-10% of a deal.
I see guys wearing suits at saratoga who are nothing more than guys who are guessing at pedigree getting into Limos and heading to the windows with wads of bills that would choke a horse to make bets. Must be nice.
By the way, I have made offers for someone who is being accused on this thread many times. Hes had me make offers in the multimillions, multiple times, and hes never ONCE asked me to do anything wrong. Never ONCE has he asked me to pad a deal, and when i asked him if I should split a commission from a possible sale with him the first time I made an offer for him, he said no, thats your money if you get it, you earn it. Hes aces in my book. And I can only judge people based on how they have acted towards me and with me in dealings.
I think all sides of the story need to be heard here before anyone judges anyone.

I don't know about working as hard as anyone you ever met....you wake up at the crack of dawn and walk around Keeneland looking at 200 something yearlings then tell me how easy it is!

I think the most frusterating thing is when a horse that was recommended to LOTS of people gets passed on and then goes on to win some serious cash and G1's and like you said all of these people are buying unknown horses at auction....makes NO sense!

Nice post Cunningham Racing..you're right, this business more than any other puts the biggest players (the owners) in a lot of risk. To them it is a hobby and they really should be able to trust the people who are "advisors".

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I don't know about working as hard as anyone you ever met....you wake up at the crack of dawn and walk around Keeneland looking at 200 something yearlings then tell me how easy it is!

Well, I will say that most of the big-shot agents don't even walk the grounds checking hundreds of yearlings in serach of the good ones.....most of them short-list horses now, which for you who don't understand means that they outsource hire other agents to go out (the agents split the ones they review by either catalog number or barns usually) in the first days of showing on the grounds during a sales week and disqualify 90+% of the horses in the sale based on what that particular big-shot pinhooker wants in terms of specifications - such as conformation, size, precociousness, etc.....

Then, after the big-shot agent has his 3 or 4 people review every horse in the sale, he consolidates the data and THEN actually goes out to check a very limited group of prospects......I know a guy who short-lists for a popular agent I won't name, and he said that this guy's grading system is SO strict that he usually will only qualify about 10% of the horses he looks at.....

Buzz Chace, Demi....most of the big dogs do this....so, I guess the point is that they never actually slave over hundreds of horses searching for the jewel in the stack.....as a matter of fact, most of the horses actually come to the big buyers because the consignors will call or seek out the big money clients when they know they have something the market is going to really like....

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The above is an example of how it works most of the time.....people would be shocked if I mentioned names of trainers and bloodstock agents that I have a VERY knowledgable account of them pulling these kinds of shady deals.....shocked I tell you...I could even nae the sales, the horses and the way it was done - but I obviously would never do that here....I acknowledge these accounts on this forum just to let you understand how FURIOUS I get when I hear or see it happen....

It is the single biggest thing wrong with our industry today IMO...OWNERS PROTECTION (we don't do enough of it) these guys screw (gentle term) the very people that fnd the game and personally patron them as trainers and keep them in business...How cold is that?

An absolute cancer to our game and it WILL eventually kill our game...mark it down, unless something changes....Think about it for a minute...There are too few wealthy persons that are eligible to own horses anyway - say maybe the top 3-to-5 % people in the country and less in the world (percentage wise)....Now, tell these owners - many of whom made their fortunes through SOUND business practice - that they will now be investing in a game that is a 95% chance that they will lose money every year involved based on racing costs and revenues, and is also a high-risk proposition in terms of the actual principle investments itself (the horse(s) ) as far as paying $5,000 - $5 ,illion on an animal that can break down or colis and die at any minute....Adding to the intrigue now, you have these *******s - these opportunist leaches and scumbags of the earth - who are supposed to be your advisors to help you succeed in the game when they are really looking to drain you for every dime you can before you have bad luck and leave them (which is inevitable)....(BTW, I've even heard a VERY famous trainer say that he drains them aggressively early on because you never know how long they'll be with you - referring to rich clients)...Once horse racing is exposed for this type of wide spread scandal beyond the other scandals that already exist in our game, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A GAME YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INVESTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND ENERGY IN?

These *******s are getting rich on ZERO credentials and ruining our great game at the same time...I hope everyone of them gets caught and prosecuted..I really do....we have to come up with a better way to protect our owners before it is too late to where our reputation is such that horse racing will be known as a game of frauds and cheats and one that nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole when it comes to investing in it....scary thought, but think about it..

I don't care how dumb some people are, NOBODY will just sit there and lose their ass in an industry and take it with a smile - I guarantee you that...not even most of the wealthiest people in the world.....and now with all of this stealing and dirty business with trainers and agents with buying horses - I REALLY guarantee that people won't sit back and get humiliated and allow people to cheat them, even if its more principle that money driven...

Let me also say this.....trainers need to accept more responsibilty when it comes to buying horses legitimately too IMO......If you are a trainer and you think a horse is worth $100,000 and want to buy him at a sale and you go to $150,000 to buy the horse because you think you can because it is the owner's cash and not yours - that is wrong and unethicle IMO....Trainers should spend the money as if it was their own, but they don't becasue they are usually lazy and ultimately do not care about what the owner spends for a horse as long as they get to train it....(not all trainers are like this obviously..I'm singling out a popular group that I see this sort of behavior from all the time). I laugh because they raise their hands like its no big deal at all....I watch some of these guys at the auction..a horse will be going $400,000....$450,000....$500,000 and the hands effortlessly go up in the air and I can't hal;p but think to myself with soem of these guys that "Damn, he has never probably even seen $500,000 in his total life - yet he is effortlessy bidding it as if it were like chump change" - how ironic I find that....

This game has ALOT of horrible habits ad traditions that simnply need to be run out...they are cancerous and sometimes as an owner you almost get the fealing as if your are supposed to be f *cked over in this game when this sh it happens....its almost like they expect you to accept it....

The overall fact that the owner economics in this game are WAAAY upside-down suggests that we really need to address this issue fast and make it right...

Think about it...if you were a stockholder in a company that always lost money, wouldn't you sell and find a better investment?..Of course you would....Owners are the lifeblood of the industries...without them there is no product...no horses....no trainers get paid, no jockeys get paid - see where I'm going?

Yet despite that fact, 95% of the owners in our game lose their asses every year while some of the trainers and jockeys get rich....upside-down economics....

Owners pay for everything...the last thing they need now is getting a ram-job from these *******s who claim to be professionals - but are really just fraudulent crook hillbillies that call themselves trainers and bloodstock agents (again, most trainers are probably okay people...as for agents - no comment...I'd never use one...)

THIS is what people in positions of influence in the industry should be writing about. How come this story is never found in the racing press until it's too late, then it just gets swept under the rug?

I'd guess things are different state by state... true? Even if that's true, why aren't there "model" regs from an national organization (NTRA?) in place?

Disclosure, audiitng, etc... And if it's as bad as this, I gotta assume a lot of the dirty money is cash.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

THIS is what people in positions of influence in the industry should be writing about. How come this story is never found in the racing press until it's too late, then it just gets swept under the rug?

I'd guess things are different state by state... true? Even if that's true, why aren't there "model" regs from an national organization (NTRA?) in place?

Disclosure, audiitng, etc... And if it's as bad as this, I gotta assume a lot of the dirty money is cash.

The problem that lies here is that some of the people that advertise and patron many of these publications are the same people who participate in this type of stuff - and you obviously don't want to lose thier business...

I agree that its not right at all and i've been waiting on that brave soul who knows its going on and has the balls to do a write-up with documented incidents and exploits the cheats for who they are.....I wait for it everyday but knowone willl ever do it for the same reason I won't do it - I want to keep my job

Sucks....but its taboo....

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The problem that lies here is that some of the people that advertise and patron many of these publications are the same people who participate in this type of stuff - and you obviously don't want to lose thier business...

I agree that its not right at all and i've been waiting on that brave soul who knows its going on and has the balls to do a write-up with documented incidents and exploits the cheats for who they are.....I wait for it everyday but knowone willl ever do it for the same reason I won't do it - I want to keep my job

Sucks....but its taboo....

the sport is full of cheats. only dishonest people and people that keep quiet will ever get anywhere near the top and stay there. this is the case in all professional sports. i laugh everytime i hear people say a guy like lance armstrong did not cheat. they all cheat and horse sales and racing are no different.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The above is an example of how it works most of the time.....people would be shocked if I mentioned names of trainers and bloodstock agents that I have a VERY knowledgable account of them pulling these kinds of shady deals.....shocked I tell you...I could even nae the sales, the horses and the way it was done - but I obviously would never do that here....I acknowledge these accounts on this forum just to let you understand how FURIOUS I get when I hear or see it happen....

It is the single biggest thing wrong with our industry today IMO...OWNERS PROTECTION (we don't do enough of it) these guys screw (gentle term) the very people that fnd the game and personally patron them as trainers and keep them in business...How cold is that?

An absolute cancer to our game and it WILL eventually kill our game...mark it down, unless something changes....Think about it for a minute...There are too few wealthy persons that are eligible to own horses anyway - say maybe the top 3-to-5 % people in the country and less in the world (percentage wise)....Now, tell these owners - many of whom made their fortunes through SOUND business practice - that they will now be investing in a game that is a 95% chance that they will lose money every year involved based on racing costs and revenues, and is also a high-risk proposition in terms of the actual principle investments itself (the horse(s) ) as far as paying $5,000 - $5 ,illion on an animal that can break down or colis and die at any minute....Adding to the intrigue now, you have these *******s - these opportunist leaches and scumbags of the earth - who are supposed to be your advisors to help you succeed in the game when they are really looking to drain you for every dime you can before you have bad luck and leave them (which is inevitable)....(BTW, I've even heard a VERY famous trainer say that he drains them aggressively early on because you never know how long they'll be with you - referring to rich clients)...Once horse racing is exposed for this type of wide spread scandal beyond the other scandals that already exist in our game, DOES THIS SOUND LIKE A GAME YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN INVESTING YOUR TIME, MONEY, AND ENERGY IN?

These *******s are getting rich on ZERO credentials and ruining our great game at the same time...I hope everyone of them gets caught and prosecuted..I really do....we have to come up with a better way to protect our owners before it is too late to where our reputation is such that horse racing will be known as a game of frauds and cheats and one that nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole when it comes to investing in it....scary thought, but think about it..

I don't care how dumb some people are, NOBODY will just sit there and lose their ass in an industry and take it with a smile - I guarantee you that...not even most of the wealthiest people in the world.....and now with all of this stealing and dirty business with trainers and agents with buying horses - I REALLY guarantee that people won't sit back and get humiliated and allow people to cheat them, even if its more principle that money driven...

Let me also say this.....trainers need to accept more responsibilty when it comes to buying horses legitimately too IMO......If you are a trainer and you think a horse is worth $100,000 and want to buy him at a sale and you go to $150,000 to buy the horse because you think you can because it is the owner's cash and not yours - that is wrong and unethicle IMO....Trainers should spend the money as if it was their own, but they don't becasue they are usually lazy and ultimately do not care about what the owner spends for a horse as long as they get to train it....(not all trainers are like this obviously..I'm singling out a popular group that I see this sort of behavior from all the time). I laugh because they raise their hands like its no big deal at all....I watch some of these guys at the auction..a horse will be going $400,000....$450,000....$500,000 and the hands effortlessly go up in the air and I can't hal;p but think to myself with soem of these guys that "Damn, he has never probably even seen $500,000 in his total life - yet he is effortlessy bidding it as if it were like chump change" - how ironic I find that....

This game has ALOT of horrible habits ad traditions that simnply need to be run out...they are cancerous and sometimes as an owner you almost get the fealing as if your are supposed to be f *cked over in this game when this sh it happens....its almost like they expect you to accept it....

The overall fact that the owner economics in this game are WAAAY upside-down suggests that we really need to address this issue fast and make it right...

Think about it...if you were a stockholder in a company that always lost money, wouldn't you sell and find a better investment?..Of course you would....Owners are the lifeblood of the industries...without them there is no product...no horses....no trainers get paid, no jockeys get paid - see where I'm going?

Yet despite that fact, 95% of the owners in our game lose their asses every year while some of the trainers and jockeys get rich....upside-down economics....

Owners pay for everything...the last thing they need now is getting a ram-job from these *******s who claim to be professionals - but are really just fraudulent crook hillbillies that call themselves trainers and bloodstock agents (again, most trainers are probably okay people...as for agents - no comment...I'd never use one...)

Nice post, Joel.

I feel the exact same way.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What happens in many of these cases is actually way worse than a kickback. They will call it a kickback, but it's actually stealing. Some trainers will see a horse that they like at a sale. They will go to the consignor and ask the consignor how much they are hoping to get for the horse. Let's say the consignor says that he is hoping to get $600,00 for the horse. The trainer will tell the consignor to bid against him and run the price up to $1 million. Then the trainer and consignor will split that extra $400,000. This is outright thievery. The owner gets cheated out of $400,000. He pays $1 million for a horse that he could have gotten for $600,000.

It's more like chicanery than outright theft.

Anyone who spends $1 million on something that he knows nothing about ...

... either has lots of millions ... or is a complete chump.

The scheming trainers and consignors don't put a gun to anyone's head ... the chumps do these things voluntarily.

If you pay $100 for something ... then see it selling for $60 everywhere else ... is the person who sold it to you a thief ... or is it your fault for not being diligent?

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

It's more like chicanery than outright theft.

Anyone who spends $1 million on something that he knows nothing about ...

... either has lots of millions ... or is a complete chump.

The scheming trainers and consignors don't put a gun to anyone's head ... the chumps do these things voluntarily.

If you pay $100 for something ... then see it selling for $60 everywhere else ... is the person who sold it to you a thief ... or is it your fault for not being diligent?

it is criminal, not chicanery. the owners depend on the trainer that works for them to be honest. if you hire an accountant and he plays with numbers to his advantage, or if you hire any professional and they are cheating you behind your back that is wrong. you are paying for their expertise, not for them to be a thief.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Revolution

it is criminal, not chicanery. the owners depend on the trainer that works for them to be honest. if you hire an accountant and he plays with numbers to his advantage, or if you hire any professional and they are cheating you behind your back that is wrong. you are paying for their expertise, not for them to be a thief.

Yes, exactly.

[Scurlogue Champ]

"Value" in a unproven racing prospect is about the most subjective thing on the planet.

A horse that sells for a million in one sale, might be worth $75,000 in another sale.

The trust is placed with agents to see the best value and know the worth of what they are really buying, and get it for the cheapest price possible for their client in my opinion.

I could be dead wrong, as always.

Originally Posted by moodwalker

"Value" in a unproven racing prospect is about the most subjective thing on the planet.

A horse that sells for a million in one sale, might be worth $75,000 in another sale.

The trust is placed with agents to see the best value and know the worth of what they are really buying, and get it for the cheapest price possible for their client in my opinion.

I could be dead wrong, as always.

Nope, you are 110% correct in my opinion....they need to spend money like CFOs would spend money for a large company, or like purchasing managers would spend money for large manufacturers.....the bottomline os that YOU ARE ON THE PAYROLL WORKING FOR SOMEONE AND WHEN YOU ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY YOU ARE ENTRUSTED TO WORK DILIGENTLY TO BE AS EFFECTIVE AND AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE!!!

How many times has a sale ended and you heard a quote from an agent or a trainer who said, "He was the best indiviual in the sale and I was going to spend whatever I had to get him"?

...I've heard this a few times and I shake my head everytime....

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Nope, you are 110% correct in my opinion....they need to spend money like CFOs would spend money for a large company, or like purchasing managers would spend money for large manufacturers.....the bottomline os that YOU ARE ON THE PAYROLL WORKING FOR SOMEONE AND WHEN YOU ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY YOU ARE ENTRUSTED TO WORK DILIGENTLY TO BE AS EFFECTIVE AND AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE!!!

How many times has a sale ended and you heard a quote from an agent or a trainer who said, "He was the best indiviual in the sale and I was going to spend whatever I had to get him"?

...I've heard this a few times and I shake my head everytime....

I will say this, one of the best things you can have as a private sales agent is educated clients. It makes it much easier because if a horse doesn't pan out they are less likely to say you screwed them. Educated clients know in what range a horse is worth and don't just take your word for everything.

Joel's right, this is the biggest problem in the game.
the problem now with racing is that we just don't have enough owners to go around. More than any other problem we face, thats so far ahead at number one that its not even funny.
Here is what fewer owners means and here is how it impacts the business:
1) trainers are under extreme pressure to win early, often, and not lay up a horse who may need laying up. If you don't perform at the highest level, your owner gets 100 phone calls from other trainers(all fighting over the same scraps of meat like hungry dogs) saying they could do better. It leads to horses being pushed too hard and too often.
2) The business has lost its "middle class" to a very large extent. You now have huge owners, and little ones. The number of guys in the middle has shrunk to a record low. A monopoly has been created among a small number of trainers and owners.
3) Fewer owners means fewer horses which means smaller fields which means bad gambling opportunities for bettors and lower handle for racetracks.
Now why do we have fewer owners? Simple, if their early experience is that they get screwed, they just decide to leave the game.

Man would I love to be given the same budget to spend in a year privately for an owner and have him give his "yearling picker outer agent" be given the same budget and see whose purchases earn more and have higher residual value at the end.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Nope, you are 110% correct in my opinion....they need to spend money like CFOs would spend money for a large company, or like purchasing managers would spend money for large manufacturers.....the bottomline os that YOU ARE ON THE PAYROLL WORKING FOR SOMEONE AND WHEN YOU ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY YOU ARE ENTRUSTED TO WORK DILIGENTLY TO BE AS EFFECTIVE AND AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE!!!

How many times has a sale ended and you heard a quote from an agent or a trainer who said, "He was the best indiviual in the sale and I was going to spend whatever I had to get him"?

...I've heard this a few times and I shake my head everytime....

I also love that "best individual in the sale" line. hahahaha

Originally Posted by Revolution

it is criminal, not chicanery. the owners depend on the trainer that works for them to be honest. if you hire an accountant and he plays with numbers to his advantage, or if you hire any professional and they are cheating you behind your back that is wrong. you are paying for their expertise, not for them to be a thief.

That only depends on there being a contractual agreement which rules out such transactions.

And an accountant can't play with numbers ... if you require him to give you regular accountings. If your head is up your butt ... that's as much your fault as his.

Let's face it ... there is no known value or price for any race horse ... one man's million-dollar horse is another man's nag.

How can anyone say, "The horse was only worth $100,000 ... but I paid $200,000"? Hey ... the horse may really be worth nothing ... or millions. A yearling may never get to the races ... or he could be a champion. A broodmare may be barren ... or she may drop five SWs. A champion race horse can go to stud and be Coaltown (0 SWs from 160 foals) ... or Bold Ruler (24% SWs).

The price of anything ... horses, cars, cigarettes, or toothpaste ... is what you're willing to pay for it ... and what someone else is willing to sell it for.

If some hustlers take you for a ride ... you let your own greed and/or indifference play you for a chump.

However ... this has been a most interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all who contributed ... or almost all.