A Saratoga wrap up, best and worst

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Gomez was the best jock of the meet by far. His numbers were incredible. He had the highest win percentage of any jock. He had the highest in the money percentage by far. Not only that, he was doing it on price horses. Look at the prices of some of his horses lately. Keen Lassie pays $12.80 to win, Corryville pays $10.20 to place, Second of June pays $19.00 to place, Tiz Wondeful pays $12.60 to win, Zanjero pays $6.50 to place, Sipsey pays $16.00 to win, On the Catwalk pays $15.20 to win. Those are just a few of the horses he rode the last 3 days. He's the only jockey you could bet on every race and make money. He is so far the best that it really isn't close. He will often times move a horse up by 3-4 lengths. I'm glad that most of you don't get it. I'm glad you think that Edgar Prado is just as good as Gomez. That's like thinking that David Toms is as good as Tiger Woods. It's absurd. They're not in the same league.

If anyone has the stats, I'd like to see the ROI on Gomez' horses at Saratoga compared to Prado and the other jocks.

I agree that it is laughable to argue about who was the best jockey at the recently concluded Saratoga Meet. Gomez was easily the best and the numbers dont lie. This is a jockey that was NEW to the toughest racing circuit in the country and still managed to lead in percentage and dollars won. Quite a feat.

I dont agree that he is that much better than Prado though. By the mere fact that he is Edgar Prado, the prices on his mounts will be shorter. I am more comfortable saying that they are equivalent and that Gomez outrode him a little bit this meet.

The Spa meet isn't the only time everyone in the industry gets together
what about the horsemen out at Del Mar?
I'd consider the Derby and the BC more of an all-inclusive gathering
I'm not saying it isn't great, I'm sure it is
but when East meets West, and toss in Mid-west and International
to me, you'd have to rate that as higher horse racing affair

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

The Spa meet isn't the only time everyone in the industry gets together
what about the horsemen out at Del Mar?
I'd consider the Derby and the BC more of an all-inclusive gathering
I'm not saying it isn't great, I'm sure it is
but when East meets West, and toss in Mid-west and International
to me, you'd have to rate that as higher horse racing affair

Bellamy you really don't get it.
Not everyone goes to the Derby or the Bc. Trust me, everyone goes to the spa.
At those events you can't even watch workouts without a badge or paying to get in.
Its not about the horse racing Bellamy. You can watch that on tv, and most people do.
saratoga's daily attendance is the highets average in the USA. Dwarfs every place else. Now why do you think that is when they could all stay home and watch on tv?
You really should come here once before you make a statement like that. I don't know how you could compare them without attending it.
I could go forever without attending a BC, and not care one bit. I love the derby and Kentucky, but if given a choice between never being there again, and attending the Spa. It would take less than a nanosecond to make the choice.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Bellamy you really don't get it.
Not everyone goes to the Derby or the Bc. Trust me, everyone goes to the spa.
At those events you can't even watch workouts without a badge or paying to get in.
Its not about the horse racing Bellamy. You can watch that on tv, and most people do.
saratoga's daily attendance is the highets average in the USA. Dwarfs every place else. Now why do you think that is when they could all stay home and watch on tv?
You really should come here once before you make a statement like that. I don't know how you could compare them without attending it.
I could go forever without attending a BC, and not care one bit. I love the derby and Kentucky, but if given a choice between never being there again, and attending the Spa. It would take less than a nanosecond to make the choice.

Have you ever been to Del Mar? It used to be great. It's not that great any more because both the dirt and the turf courses are all messed up. I don't like running horses on either surface down there. I won't have to worry about the dirt any more because they are geting rid of it but that turf course is a joke. It's like cement.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Have you ever been to Del Mar? It used to be great. It's not that great any more because both the dirt and the turf courses are all messed up. I don't like running horses on either surface down there. I won't have to worry about the dirt any more because they are geting rid of it but that turf course is a joke. It's like cement.

Rupert,
I have always wanted to see del mar more than any other track. I've never tried to compare the atmosphere or ambience of the two because I couldn't do so in an intelligent manner obviously.
My friends are all unanimous in their praise of its women, atmosphere, and climate. All the folks I know give it a huge thumbs up.
The racing stinks there these days but I still wanna see it someday. It just doesn't work out for me because it starts before we start here by a week and overlaps. Someday though I'm gonna fly out of here on Tuesday(today) and catch the last two days and the Futurity. Maybe someday get to meet you and Alysheba and the West Coast guys on here.

[jpops757]

I have never attended the Spa but you guys sure make me want to. My take on Del Mar(which I have attended] is kinda kike Texas stadium. The true Cowboy fan is not there . Its a place to be seen and the true fan watches at home. Texas stadium is nothing like Philly or Wash. I would like to throw another venue out there for you to attend . Oaklawn, sounds as if it comes close to the spa except it dosent have the magnitude of the everyone is there but the atmosphere sounds very similar.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by jpops757

I have never attended the Spa but you guys sure make me want to. My take on Del Mar(which I have attended] is kinda kike Texas stadium. The true Cowboy fan is not there . Its a place to be seen and the true fan watches at home. Texas stadium is nothing like Philly or Wash. I would like to throw another venue out there for you to attend . Oaklawn, sounds as if it comes close to the spa except it dosent have the magnitude of the everyone is there but the atmosphere sounds very similar.

"it's the place to be seen and the true fan watches at home" is exactly why you want to see Saratoga, because the die hard fans thrive there. The people who show up that aren't there to picnic and 'spin' are like all of us here. There is just no words to describe the feeling of wandering about the track and city of Saratoga Springs both day and night. (and everyone has to stop at Siro's at some point in their lives!) I've been to nearly every corner of our country and Saratoga really is something special. If you love racing as much as I do, you can really feel a natural kinship to so many people because the racing fan is few and far between in the world, but in Saratoga, they are aplenty. I've been to Keeneland, The Derby, Oaklawn, Suffolk Downs (we all slum it sometimes ) Aqueduct and Belmont and like Oracle said, I too would give up every BC & Derby for the beauty of Saratoga.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Bellamy you really don't get it.
Not everyone goes to the Derby or the Bc. Trust me, everyone goes to the spa.
At those events you can't even watch workouts without a badge or paying to get in.
Its not about the horse racing Bellamy. You can watch that on tv, and most people do.
saratoga's daily attendance is the highets average in the USA. Dwarfs every place else. Now why do you think that is when they could all stay home and watch on tv?
You really should come here once before you make a statement like that. I don't know how you could compare them without attending it.
I could go forever without attending a BC, and not care one bit. I love the derby and Kentucky, but if given a choice between never being there again, and attending the Spa. It would take less than a nanosecond to make the choice.

Hogwash! Travers day 40,000, Derby day 150,000, but I guess 40,000 includes "everybody"...there was not a single west coast trainer there, and why should there be when they can make money at Del Mar...you know a lot but you don't get it that the East Coast is not the end all be all, take John Q. Public in Mesa, Arizona who loves racing, maybe he gets to the Spa once in his entire lifetime...it's just too out of the way, even if you find a cheap flight to the city you're still 3.5 hours away, which is why they'll never have a BC there, but they will at Monmouth? Hmmm. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the pecking order is 1) Derby, BC and then everything else is based on proximity.

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

Hogwash! Travers day 40,000, Derby day 150,000, but I guess 40,000 includes "everybody"...there was not a single west coast trainer there, and why should there be when they can make money at Del Mar...you know a lot but you don't get it that the East Coast is not the end all be all, take John Q. Public in Mesa, Arizona who loves racing, maybe he gets to the Spa once in his entire lifetime...it's just too out of the way, even if you find a cheap flight to the city you're still 3.5 hours away, which is why they'll never have a BC there, but they will at Monmouth? Hmmm. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but the pecking order is 1) Derby, BC and then everything else is based on proximity.

Well lets see, I've been to all three, and to me its not close.
Hogwash is trying to use a derby day figure to compare to 36 days. Wanna go average for average daily attendance at a meet?
And most folks don't go to the track for racing alone, its also the atmosphere and things to do afterwards and before.
I've been to cups at CD, Bel, Gulf, Arlington and Lone Star. They are ok I guess, but its just another day at the track.Especially since you have to pay a fortune to get in the door. And I never saw anyplace like Siros afterwards at any of them.
Derbies are great, if you are lucky enough to have friends with a great box. But i dunno about paying 50 bucks to get in the joint to sit on a folding chair in the grandstand and buy a 6 dollar water. The AVERAGE GUY gets into Saratoga for 3 dollars and gets to see grade one races 13 times a meet.
And besides, those events are one day. You blow in and you blow out.
Saratoga is 6 weeks, and anyone whos ever been there will tell you that there isnt anything like it. Anybody else been to all three and have an opinion as to what they would attend if they only had a choice to go to one?

I'm a big fan of the racing at Saratoga and if I went I'm sure I'd love the atmosphere & and scenery
my point was that a derby or breeder's cup is going to get more of the top trainers and horses showing up from all over the country (and world), thus making it a more inclusive event(s)
as for a fan not close to the east coast, they would have a better chance of seeing a BC because they move it around, or going to a derby because it is more centralized
for a trainer/owner well they'd keep their horses out west until BC time
that's simply my point...I'm sure you could ask people which they'd like to be at and the majority probably would say Saratoga, but people can't just be beemed up there from all parts of the country...a better question would be how many derbys have you been to, how many BCs, and how many trips to the Spa? not so much which provided you with the best experience
as I'm sure Saratoga is a wonderful experience everyone should go at least once I would urge, myself included

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

I'm a big fan of the racing at Saratoga and if I went I'm sure I'd love the atmosphere & and scenery
my point was that a derby or breeder's cup is going to get more of the top trainers and horses showing up from all over the country (and world), thus making it a more inclusive event(s)
as for a fan not close to the east coast, they would have a better chance of seeing a BC because they move it around, or going to a derby because it is more centralized
for a trainer/owner well they'd keep their horses out west until BC time
that's simply my point...I'm sure you could ask people which they'd like to be at and the majority probably would say Saratoga, but people can't just be beemed up there from all parts of the country...a better question would be how many derbys have you been to, how many BCs, and how many trips to the Spa? not so much which provided you with the best experience
as I'm sure Saratoga is a wonderful experience everyone should go at least once I would urge, myself included

I don't really see how where people are located matters to be honest. If I lived in Cali, I'd hitchhike across the country if I had to be here on opening Day.
As far as the BC goes? Last year it was 3 1/2 hours from my house and I didn't go. Lans was full up with all sorts of folks for First Sam's race at his table and I woulda had to sit upstairs. I just said screw it, I've been to Belmont many times, would have to travel and sit in a traffic jam, blah. So I stayed home and watched it on tv without having to stand on line to pee.
I'll go this year because I love kentucky and the friends I have there. But you won't see me at Monmouth Park the following year even though its real close.
Racing is best enjoyed while being comfortable. Saratoga is about the only place I know of where you can wear shorts and get in the joint for three bucks and watch racing of that quality while music plays in the background and people party at picnic tables and people are dressed up the old fashioned way in jackets in the clubhouse boxes.
Afterwards you can WALK to a variety of bars and restaurants for more merriment and oh yes, the DRF is sold on every streetcorner.
Its the atmosphere Mike. I went to a BC at a certain place and couldnt even get the next days DRF. They didnt even have it at most of the stores around there.
This whole place embraces racing(especially for that 6 weeks) and everywhere you go people are talking horses. You go out for a drink and you will always see some guy with a DRF and you say "who do you like?". Its like a continuous 6 week racing festival where its ok to walk around a be a horse fan with the DRF under your arm. Its just not like that anyplace else that I have ever been.
The whole town is about racing 24/7 during the meet.
And noplace else is there an atmosphere like the one in the mornings during workouts. Thats the prize in the crackerjack box. Warm sunny mornings where the horses prance onto the track in front of you as you sit in a clubhouse box that belongs to a zillionaire in the afternoon. Trainers walking by and saying hello and asking the clockers(real and fake) "what did you get him in?" Most places won't let spectators in to see works at all.
Like I said, its not the racing, thats just the icing on the cake. Head on down to Belmont on Friday and you could shoot a cannon through the place and not hit anyone. On Saturday even with the grade ones you are talking about 15 grand or fewer. And if you go out in NYC on Friday night with the DRF under your arm and ask someone who they like, they will say either the Mets, Giants, Jets, or Yankees.

Lemme put it a better way. A guy like GPK comes here last year, and then actually flies into town the last two days this year on the spur of the moment just because he can't bear the thought of not being here for at least a day.
Del Mar? No sales there, so I don't know how you can say the whole industry gathers there, because they don't. Saratoga is attended by people all over the world. Many who pick up and ship outta wherever they live and rent overpriced houses and rooms or hotels. They don't do it to watch racing Mike. Everyone now can watch races in there homes and quite nicely at that. You don't drop everything you have going on, spend a fortune on rent, and head to Saratoga for the racing. The racing is only part of it, and in most cases its not the whole reason. Its the social gatherings, seeing friends, the nights out, and the mornings watching graded stakes horse after graded stakes horse prance onto the track to work out as you sip coffee in a clubhouse box while mary Ryan drones on and on.
You ever make it here, lets see what kind of tune you are singing after you leave. Maybe next year!!!

Pops, the only reason its easier to accept the meet ending up here is because of the weather. Its now colder and dark today and the weather makes up so much of the atmosphere here. Those warm and sunny mornings and evenings and hot afternoons in the sun give it a certain flavor. People walking around in shorts, women in light summer dresses, etc.
If anything, I always thought NYRA should consider backing the meet up a week and ending before labor day. But they never will because the difference in handle and attendance at Spa the last week(though down from the other 5 weeks here) still dwarfs what they used to do at belmont back when they went home a week earlier.

[PSH]

Saratoga is a special place during a special time of the year.....
My favorite month of the year is August and my favorite place to be is Saratoga. Too bad it is so far away from the SF Bay area.

If you love horses then Saratoga is the place to be.... Especially, in the mornings - being on the backstretch, leaning over the rail at the Oklahoma track, walking around the barns.

The afternoons are special too. Sitting behind Steve's place and just hanging out with other horse players, friends.... The scenery is spectacular and the racing top notch. The best horses, jockeys and trainers all converge in this small town. It is truly a celebration of our sport....

I can not imagine what it is like living there and being able to participate on a daily basis.... ALso, what it feels like today, the day after the meet has concluded and the numerous vans take away the horses to Belmont and Aqueduct.

I need a break given the last six months of non-stop racing at the Mecca. That said, it won't be long until i start dreaming of the last Wendesday of July 2007 approaching and making my plans to travel 3,000 miles to once again be part of The Spa. Next year, it will be for one full week and i will be bringing my family this time.

Thanks for a great meet everyone. Until next year at Saratoga Springs....

PSH

Originally Posted by PSH

Saratoga is a special place during a special time of the year.....
My favorite month of the year is August and my favorite place to be is Saratoga. Too bad it is so far away from the SF Bay area.

If you love horses then Saratoga is the place to be.... Especially, in the mornings - being on the backstretch, leaning over the rail at the Oklahoma track, walking around the barns.

The afternoons are special too. Sitting behind Steve's place and just hanging out with other horse players, friends.... The scenery is spectacular and the racing top notch. The best horses, jockeys and trainers all converge in this small town. It is truly a celebration of our sport....

I can not imagine what it is like living there and being able to participate on a daily basis.... ALso, what it feels like today, the day after the meet has concluded and the numerous vans take away the horses to Belmont and Aqueduct.

I need a break given the last six months of non-stop racing at the Mecca. That said, it won't be long until i start dreaming of the last Wendesday of July 2007 approaching and making my plans to travel 3,000 miles to once again be part of The Spa. Next year, it will be for one full week and i will be bringing my family this time.

Thanks for a great meet everyone. Until next year at Saratoga Springs....

PSH

Steve's piece on this site pretty much sums it up. When you are sitting in the freezing cold in the winter, or on a gloomy fall day, you ask yourself what the hell you are doing here.
Then your mind shifts back to that one great day that was even better than the other great days during the meet. The day when you won a pile of cash, or watched some great races and went out to dinner and then went laet night swimming at a bbq with the beer flowing and were talking about the days races and what was on tap for the next day. You close your eyes and remember that day and tell yourself that more of those are coming the next summer, and you make it through.

[Gander]

Theres just something special about this place. I've been to a few California tracks and while nice to look at, there just seems to be something very social and "meet specific" lacking. The vast majority of people that I see are there because its something to do, a novelity. At Saratoga, people actually plan vacations around the track and as someone who lives here, there was only 1 weekend this entire meet that we didnt have guests from out of town up to visit. I've really come to appreciate the quality of racing here, its very easy to take for granted, especially if you dont compare it to other tracks like Delmar which has in general a very consistently weak quality of racing.

I need a break as I went more this summer than I have in a very long time, but 322 days is a little too long!

I guess I will just have to hope the next 32 days go by very quickly.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Gander

Theres just something special about this place. I've been to a few California tracks and while nice to look at, there just seems to be something very social and "meet specific" lacking. The vast majority of people that I see are there because its something to do, a novelity. At Saratoga, people actually plan vacations around the track and as someone who lives here, there was only 1 weekend this entire meet that we didnt have guests from out of town up to visit. I've really come to appreciate the quality of racing here, its very easy to take for granted, especially if you dont compare it to other tracks like Delmar which has in general a very consistently weak quality of racing.

I need a break as I went more this summer than I have in a very long time, but 322 days is a little too long!

I guess I will just have to hope the next 32 days go by very quickly.

you say that Del Mar has a consistently weak quality of racing? What are you smoking? Del Mar has the best quality of racing in the country. Del Mar and Saratoga have the two best meets in the country in terms of quality. Look at the horses who have run at Del Mar over the years. Last year, the BC Juvenille winner Stevie Wonderboy ran at Del Mar, Wild Fit the BC Juvenille Filly runner-up ran at Del Mar. I don't think I need to bore you and name all the Breeder's Cup winners such as Singletary, Sweet Catomine, and Pleasantly Perfect have run at Del Mar. Del Mar has never lacked in their quality of racing. They have had just as many superstars over the years as Saratoga if not more.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I agree that it is laughable to argue about who was the best jockey at the recently concluded Saratoga Meet. Gomez was easily the best and the numbers dont lie. This is a jockey that was NEW to the toughest racing circuit in the country and still managed to lead in percentage and dollars won. Quite a feat.

I dont agree that he is that much better than Prado though. By the mere fact that he is Edgar Prado, the prices on his mounts will be shorter. I am more comfortable saying that they are equivalent and that Gomez outrode him a little bit this meet.

Prado is fine. If you put him on the best horse, he will usually win. However, he's not going to move horses up by a few lengths like Gomez.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Rupert-

Gomez does not move horses up like you think. No Jockey ever does by his or herself. Trainers move up horses and jockeys can lose races with bad decisons, but are NOT the be all end all when choosing who to bet on. Period. Garrett did ride for Pletcher (Circular Quay), Clement, Bin Surror & Godolphin. So he was not getting bad horses and moving them up. He rode many good horses well.

Betting on the Jockey angle in the end is a losing proposition.

NC Tony

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by NoCarolinaTony

Rupert-

Gomez does not move horses up like you think. No Jockey ever does by his or herself. Trainers move up horses and jockeys can lose races with bad decisons, but are NOT the be all end all when choosing who to bet on. Period. Garrett did ride for Pletcher (Circular Quay), Clement, Bin Surror & Godolphin. So he was not getting bad horses and moving them up. He rode many good horses well.

Betting on the Jockey angle in the end is a losing proposition.

NC Tony

In general, I agree with you. At the big tracks, most of the jockeys are decent. If you put any of the top 12 jockeys at Del Mar or Saratoga on the best horse, they are going to win 90% of the time. there isn't any jockey that I won't bet on. In general, I don't really cares who is riding. I just try to bet on the best horse.

In the last 25 years, I've only seen 3 jockeys that actually seem to move some horses way up. Those 3 jocks are Gomez, P Val, and Stevens.

P Val is not as smart as Gomez or Stevens, but horses really seem to run for him. If you have a sprinter that usually goes head and head on the lead with the same horses every race, if you put P Val on the horse, he will probably be able to get clear of the other horses. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen. He can actually get more early speed out of a horse than anyone.

I'm not one to normally talk about jockeys. The only jockey I used to ever talk about was stevens because when he was in his prime, he was by so far the best is was ridiculous. It was like watching Tiger or Michael Jordan or anyone who is dominant in their sport. Gomez is the best jockey I've seen since Stevens. He's almost always in the right spot and he gets more out of a horse than anyone. I normally don't talk about jocks, but this guy is simply in another league. It's so extreme that it's hard not to notice. Its not just a matter of him getting good mounts. Look at his ROI. H's winning on horses at big prices and he does it consistently. Its not a coincidence. He did it last year too. He was winning huge race after huge races on 25-1 shots. He did it on Purge, Taste of Paradise, etc. It's not just a coincidence that these horses move way up for him. It happens over and over and over again. The smart trainers see it. Pletcher and Baffert both know it.

I think if you bet on him blindly in every race at Saratoga, you would have actually made money. That's pretty amazing.