3/28 (GP): Florida Derby (G1); Swale (G2); Appleton (G3)

[mbahadur]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

Exactly. Pletcher could have showed a little more class. Why didn't he run in the Wood to begin with??

It would have been just as difficult to win the Wood (which has the same $750K purse as the Fla Derby) with I Want Revenge in there as it would have been the Florida Derby. On HRTV before the race, when asked about the comparison to Big Brown going into the Florida Derby last year, Jeff Siegel stated that this was a much tougher field than Big Brown had to face.

The $1 million Arkansas Derby may have been a good fit for Dunkirk's running style if Pletcher could have waited 2 more weeks (second in the Arkansas Derby is also worth more than second in the Fla Derby).

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by mbahadur

The $1 million Arkansas Derby may have been a good fit for Dunkirk's running style if Pletcher could have waited 2 more weeks (second in the Arkansas Derby is also worth more than second in the Fla Derby).

Not an easy track to close on... and right now there isn't loads of speed in Arkansas. Silver City is not going... so it's Papa Clem and who else on the front?

[ELA]

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ELA

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

none of the horses seem to have much bottom going in these days. i don't think it would be much of a stretch to run dunkirk. it's not as tho the rest of the field is going in with double-digit starts anymore.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

none of the horses seem to have much bottom going in these days. i don't think it would be much of a stretch to run dunkirk. it's not as tho the rest of the field is going in with double-digit starts anymore.

Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ELA

Yes, I'll agree. You can look to Big Brown, Curlin, etc. OK. So, what are they going to do here, run again to get in? Which race? I just don't see it. I think people will debate it all day, but the bottom line is that he didn't do enough to get in. With Big Brown, simply put, he won it so it was clear cut. Curlin -- he had a G3 and a G2 in his last two starts before the Derby.

Regardless, I see your point. I just don't see Dunkirk doing anything but sitting on the bubble and waiting. If he gets in, sure he'll run, but I don't see it being the ideal, far from it.

Eric

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

after reading what pletcher had said before the race, i don't expect they run him again.

I agree all things being equal. I just don't know anything about the decision making process, attitudes, mindset, etc. involved with the people in that camp. I don't know Todd, nor do I know the owners. However, often, the owners play the game very differently than anyone else. OTOH, they have no one to answer to. The conversation just goes 'round and 'round.

Eric

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by ELA

Pletcher was disappointed. He was interviewed right there, on the spot, that moment. With everything considered, and of course his horse got beat fairly easily as well, emotion is going to come into play. No matter how he got beat, he got beat and Pletcher would be disappointed. Easy to understand.

As far as the Derby goes, if they want to try and get in -- rushing, pushing the envelope, etc. -- if that's the price they want to pay, they will pay it.

Eric

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Steve, come on. Three track records? (Edit: or maybe just two)

However, if your analysis of him looking less than 100% is on the money, then I'd have to agree that pushing on is a bad decision. I had heard he looked like a million bucks.

[Bigsmc]

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

I haven't read all of the threads yet, but no love for Big Drama (so far)?

I thought that was pretty impressive off the layoff. Fawkes is doing some fine work with this horse.

I agree.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Eric,

Does that also excuse his berating Gulfstream President Bill Murphy?

I guess this was the first 'big day' track Todd Pletcher ever ran horses on, so we should all sympathize.

They press any further with Dunkirk and they'll be no Dunkirk. He was already noticeably thin and wan...

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by ELA

Also? Steve, I didn't defend what Pletcher said. It just didn't surprise me. In addition, I didn't say anyone should sympathize with Pletcher. I just think it's very easy to understand him being disappointed.

Pletcher's a big boy, playing in the big leagues and if someone in the media wants to "call him out" so to speak regarding these comments, they will. Were there some excuses here? Sure. Like I said, he was disappointed. His horse got beat. Period.

Eric

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Kasept

His grousing was laughable. He's supposed to be the "ulimate professional horse trainer", and if that's the case, you acknowledge the winner and move on. During the 'vintage' Pletcher era, Dunkirk may have been ready to run a third big race in a relatively short time... Alas, those halcyon days are gone. The salad days as it were... Maybe DougS can pull the info up, but I'd guess that Pletcher has benefitted dozens of times from 'big day' racetracks when his horses would 're-break' at the top of the stretch and power away from fields. (Remember all those 4-5 winners that have largely disappeared from his shed?) Didn't hear him whine like a 4 year old about those surfaces.

Perhaps I just don't hold Pletcher to the standards many others do. I expected him to make remarks like that. I would not have predicted the specific remarks, but they don't surprise me at all. I wouldn't think about it either way. There is no doubt that he has benefitted from the same circumstances -- but, the big difference? His horse got beat, so all bets are off so to speak. Why the surprise here?

For the most part I agree. I guess our reactions and the surprise factor is just different.

As far as "vintage" Pletcher, I don't know, yeah the dominance was there but there were also numerous other players ready to take the field. "Back in the day" -- would he/they have raced him back and looked to get into the Derby field? I don't know. I don't play the "what would they do" hypothetically game that well. It's far to hard in the claiming game, LOL.

Regardless, at this point it's all supposition.

Eric

[Danzig]

i think he could have expressed his obvious disappointment in a better way than pointing fingers at the surface. no doubt he was incredibly down, not only did he lose the fla derby, he pretty much lost the kentucky derby as well. if he really thought this horse could win THAT race, then the blow was far more serious than getting a second in a gr 1. but he played his hand-perhaps poorly? ultimately, he has to take the blame, he's the one who chose the venue-and chose not to run europe.

maybe the withers and then preakness?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Steve, I generally agree about the whining. And I absolutely agree that he doesn't say a word if he's training Quality Road instead of Dunkirk. Pletcher is better than that, but I can't help but think back to last year's Belmont. For weeks Dutrow provided countless soundbites and quotes for us all to discuss and/or mock. Big Brown flops in the Belmont and Dutrow is nowhere to be found. I know many, including myself criticized him for it.

Now, lets consider for a second that it was the heat of the moment yesterday. I would imagine it's taken all of the effort in the world to get this horse ready for a smasher yesterday (he doesn't appear the soundest of sorts). They knew this was the make it or break it and they fell a little short. Wouldn't you be upset? Maybe he took it out on the wrong people and he was more frustrated with the situation than anything. But, if he doesn't say a word to the media, I'm sure there are people criticizing that. If we want connections reactions immediately after a race, we should expect that the reactions aren't always going to be gracious. I'm not excusing the whine, I just understand why he did it.

Dutrow's only excuse after the Belmont was "no excuse". He went to the barn and sulked by himself. Initially he took a shot at Desormeaux but later retracted. I have no problem with that, I'd rather hear that than "Mr. Microsoft" blaming the track superintendent when the truth was he got run off his feet by a BETTER HORSE.

Originally Posted by Kasept

I understand exactly why he did it. He's a snide and churlish guy. And it's even marginably excusable under duress... But he's the guy who wanted to build the Microsoft of racing operations, so don't be lashing out when you get a Vista result.

This might be your all time best analogy- I laughed

[Scav]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Was it really a surprise the track was like that? When is a track not souped up on a big day? But, I wouldn't focus on the "track records" too much. Aren't the new records only since the track was reconfigured? So we are only looking at a few years worth of races to compare. But, also aren't a majority of track records more an indication of the track, then who is doing the running?

Exactly

[justindew]

Hey, I only see two track records. Where is the third?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Was it really a surprise the track was like that? When is a track not souped up on a big day?

It was very dull on Sunshine Millions day .. which I believe is GP's second biggest day.

This One's For Phil and You Luckie Mann were the only two horses who ran a respectable final time that day. YLM hasn't even had a single workout since that race ... I'm assuming he also suffered a stall injury from the stress of that performance.

I have no problem with how fast they make the track ... I personally prefer to see lightning fast race tracks ... I think horses of all running styles handle them better and races are run truer to form - but all I want them to do is to do the best they can at keeping the track consistant throughout the day so that you can do a proper job of analyzing the races afterwards without all kinds of guess work.