Good Jub Obama!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

We are no longer in the lead in science. Many of our best scientific brains have been fleeing to other countries. Countries that don't confuse science and politics as one and the same.

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

You dont need to be an expert in science to know that far more foreigners come here to study and work than our citizens leave.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You dont need to be an expert in science to know that far more foreigners come here to study and work than our citizens leave.

Absolutely true which is why we need to keep funding basic research.
We have done a fantastic job of drawing the best and the brightest
here. But we did (hopefully temporarily) lose some very good people.

If you dont like the pull of the Hadron collider I cant help with that.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If you don't like the pull of the Hadron collider I cant help with that.

Physics joke?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You dont need to be an expert in science to know that far more foreigners come here to study and work than our citizens leave.

So? That doesn't mean some of our best minds have indeed left the US due to governmental restrictions on their areas of specialty.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

So? That doesn't mean some of our best minds have indeed left the US due to governmental restrictions on their areas of specialty.

Let me ask you a question. If there is a breakthrough in a foreign country it wont be applied here? What difference does it make where it is accomplished?

Some of our best criminals also leave the country due to govt restrictions on their area of specialty.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Let me ask you a question. If there is a breakthrough in a foreign country it wont be applied here? What difference does it make where it is accomplished?

Some of our best criminals also leave the country due to govt restrictions on their area of specialty.

Breakthroughs take time to be within the general public domain. An example, for decades, many pharmaceuticals have been accepted, used, studied and legal outside of the USA. We had patients leaving the US in search of the best medical care for particular conditions. We often require studies be redone from virtually scratch before acceptance here. Same with implants, heart valve replacements, that type of thing.

If it's not being done here, it will be a long time before it gets here.

In the meantime, before general public use, clinical trials - and the benefits to those patients - occur in the country of origin.

If we don't have an environment that fosters these health and scientific developments, the creative and bright people who are responsible for those developments go elsewhere. Where they can be creative and bright.

Your comment about criminals ... no comment.

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have "lost" some very good Physics people to Europe.
They are still US citizens, but they work for the Europeans.
The large Hadron collider lured them away.

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

yas see what happens when r and d get switched...
things that are not supposed to happen naturally.

hadron jeeezzzzz....

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What evidence is there that this is true? Our best brains have been fleeing to where? Wouldnt a great deal of top scientific minds be working for private industry or universities?

Uh, the fact that people have indeed left the US and gone to other countries that allow more extensive stem cell research ??

Yes, some have left Universities and gone private in the US.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Well when it came to voting it was put together as one and it makes me sick that some people would actually vote for this and that our "leader" would support it!!

Irish - you are right, some people mistakenly lump this as abortion.

Embryonic stem cells do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from eggs fertilized "in vitro" (means out of the body, in a petri dish) in fertilization clinics, but that are not used and are thrown out. These thrown out cells are 2-4 day old blastocytes.

These thrown out cells - with the permission of the donors - can be used instead in stem cell research.

I have used stem cells derived from a patient's own fat and injected it back into the patients hip joints to fight hip dysplasia (dog). We use adipose-based (fat) stem cells in horses (the patients own fat) to help repair tendons (have been doing that for several years). We can also use the pateint's own blood-based cell lines.

I know Chuck has purchased a horse in the past at the F-S sale, that came with the bit of information that it has it's own blood from it's own umbilical cord (from it's birth) saved in a laboratory. That blood can hopefully be used someday to derive it's own stem cells if the horse needs it.

But adult stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells - you can't always get the same things from them.

This summer there will start trials for people with certain spinal cord injuries. In the laboratory, mice with certain spinal cord injuries that cause them to be paralyzed have had certain stem cells injected, and the cells grew into the cells the mice needed, and the mice were healed and could walk.

Imagine if Christopher Reeve (remember, he got a paralyzing spinal cord injury in a fall from his horse, that made him a quadriplegic and ultimately ended up causing his death from pneumonia) - imagine if someone like this, with this terrible injury, could have been injected with stem cells that regrew the damaged neural tissue, and that paralyzed patient could walk again. How wondrous and great would that be!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Irish - you are right, some people mistakenly lump this as abortion.

Embryonic stem cells do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from eggs fertilized "in vitro" (means out of the body, in a petri dish) in fertilization clinics, but that are not used and are thrown out. These thrown out cells are 2-4 day old blastocytes.
These thrown out cells - with the permission of the donors - can be used instead in stem cell research.

I have used stem cells derived from a patient's own fat and injected it back into the patients hip joints to fight hip dysplasia (dog). We use adipose-based (fat) stem cells in horses (the patients own fat) to help repair tendons (have been doing that for several years). We can also use the pateint's own blood-based cell lines.

I know Chuck has purchased a horse in the past at the F-S sale, that came with the bit of information that it has it's own blood from it's own umbilical cord (from it's birth) saved in a laboratory. That blood can hopefully be used someday to derive it's own stem cells if the horse needs it.

But adult stem cells are not the same as embryonic stem cells - you can't always get the same things from them.

This summer there will start trials for people with certain spinal cord injuries. In the laboratory, mice with certain spinal cord injuries that cause them to be paralyzed have had certain stem cells injected, and the cells grew into the cells the mice needed, and the mice were healed and could walk.

Imagine if Christopher Reeve (remember, he got a paralyzing spinal cord injury in a fall from his horse, that made him a quadriplegic and ultimately ended up causing his death from pneumonia) - imagine if someone like this, with this terrible injury, could have been injected with stem cells that regrew the damaged neural tissue, and that paralyzed patient could walk again. How wondrous and great would that be!

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

[IrishofNDMan]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

because a fertilized egg won't necessarily attach itself to the uterine wall for starters.

i'd just as soon not get into that whole debate tho.

Originally Posted by Danzig

because a fertilized egg won't necessarily attach itself to the uterine wall for starters.

i'd just as soon not get into that whole debate tho.

oops I did.

A little basic Biology can make things awfully gray.

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

life does begin at fertilization, I don't see how you can believe otherwise.

Then the number of deaths every year is sky high.
All the "miscarriages" that happen at the 1,2,4, 8, 16, 32, etc... cell stage.
Lots of little crosses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Then the number of deaths every year is sky high.
All the "miscarriages" that happen at the 1,2,4, 8, 16, 32, etc... cell stage.
Lots of little crosses.

it's one of the arguments against birth control pills that some have made. one of the affects the pill has is keeping the uterus from allowing a fertilized egg to attach. i guess i'm going to jail.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and therein lies the rub. there are some who think life begins at fertilization-so they will of course object to using the cells, regardless of where they'd otherwise end up-in this case, the trash.

True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?

(Edit: actually Octo-Mom was injected with seven fertilized eggs, one split, two of those kids are twins)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

True, and then to be consistent, they would have to be against much of modern human reproductive science. That would be saying that a couple isn't entitled to get any child from her egg and his sperm, if it resulted in a second or third fertilized egg being discarded and not used.

And that would make The Octo-Mom and her repro specialist, that injected her with eight viable fertilized eggs ... heros?

sorry, i'm too busy laughing at the killing field analogy above to take this seriously....whew. ok.

but yes, those arguments have been made, time and again. it's why those who don't worry about 'playing god' when they do in vitro always slay me when they suddenly get all religious about culling the eight fertilized eggs they had implanted in hopes one or two would take.