Imperial Council ?

Linny · #1 01-27-2009, 02:39 PM

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

Dunkirk could turn out like Court Vision in a way. He kept winning and running visually impressive but s l o w races. When he was put to it, he came up short. (I refer to his early career on dirt, clearly he's better on grass.)

I have no issue with Shug. As a (primarily) private trainer, he's had minimal input into his stock. He gets what Phipps breeds. The Phipps' have developed many amazing "filly families" but the colts... well. Also, mares like Inside Information and Heavenly Prize who were monstresses on the track and beautifully bred have been less than stellar broodies for them. That's not Shug's fault. If you'd asked most bloodstock experts in 1997 or so what they thought the next decade looked like for Shug the'd have mentioned mares like those and others producing stellar runners. I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

freddymo · #2 01-27-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

Dunkirk could turn out like Court Vision in a way. He kept winning and running visually impressive but s l o w races. When he was put to it, he came up short. (I refer to his early career on dirt, clearly he's better on grass.)

I have no issue with Shug. As a (primarily) private trainer, he's had minimal input into his stock. He gets what Phipps breeds. The Phipps' have developed many amazing "filly families" but the colts... well. Also, mares like Inside Information and Heavenly Prize who were monstresses on the track and beautifully bred have been less than stellar broodies for them. That's not Shug's fault. If you'd asked most bloodstock experts in 1997 or so what they thought the next decade looked like for Shug the'd have mentioned mares like those and others producing stellar runners. I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

How dare you call Leading the Parade dreadful..lol

jinjin · #3 01-27-2009, 03:20 PM

I agree that the Phipps colts have been disappointing. As to Inside Information, she did produce champion 3yr old filly, Smuggler. Does anyone know what happened to Colors Flying (first foal out of Storm Flag Flying by A.P. Indy)? He's working again at Payson. I was just wondering if he was hurt or had a problem after training last summer at Saratoga and never making a start.

lemoncrush · #4 01-27-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

His debut was the race that opened my eyes, mostly due to being totally surprised that a Shug horse was so game 1st time out, and that his pedigree suggested he would be far more effective routing than sprinting.

At this point, ihs hype isn't based on credentials, as much as it is potential.

blackthroatedwind · #5 01-27-2009, 04:04 PM

I'm rooting for this horse. I made one of biggest lifetime scores on his dam, Jaramar Rain, when she broke her maiden at Keeneland a few years ago. Plus, a friend of mine is one of his owners.

I agree, however, with Linny. His debut was more exciting than his subsequent win....though he did win fairly easily that day. In retrospect, maybe we overrated that race, but Hello Broadway is still pretty good.

MaTH716 · #6 01-27-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm rooting for this horse. I made one of biggest lifetime scores on his dam, Jaramar Rain, when she broke her maiden a few years ago. Plus, a friend of mine is one of his owners.

I agree, however, with Linny. His debut was more exciting than his subsequent win....though he did win fairly easily that day. In retrospect, maybe we overrated that race, but Hello Broadway is still pretty good.

I remember that race like it was yesterday. If I remember correctly, it was at Keenland (pre poly) she was the one (and came up the golden rail) and went off at 8-1. It's funny how you remember the good ones. Thanks again for that one.

blackthroatedwind · #7 01-27-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I remember that race like it was yesterday. If I remember correctly, it was at Keenland (pre poly) she was the one (and came up the golden rail) and went off at 8-1. It's funny how you remember the good ones. Thanks again for that one.

She was 16:1.

You went on vacation when she won and brought me back a bottle of rum as thanks.

Linny · #8 01-27-2009, 04:05 PM

At this point the only colts with credentials are Midshipman, Vineyard Haven and to a lesser extent, Pioneerof the Nile and Old Fashioned. With the top 2 in Dubai, the other two lead the pack, with OF getting the edge because Pioneer has never run on dirt. Square Eddie ranks 3rd. From there on back it's all based on potential. We get a preview on Fri with the Hutcheson (Hello Broadway who beat IC and Break Water Edison return.) but it may be that the best of the classic colts is still working on allowance conditions.
Imperial Council could turn out well. His "shins" have given him time to grow, which should suit a colt of his breeding. Depending on what he faces and how he does it, I'd not knock him, but I don't have him ranked in my Top12 yet either.

KirisClown · #9 01-28-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny

I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

Good Reward was a dual Grade I winner... Dancing Forever won the Manhattan last year and was third in the BC Turf..

Pure Prize was a Grade II winner, now successful sire..

They can't really be called dreadful..

Linny · #10 01-28-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Good Reward was a dual Grade I winner... Dancing Forever won the Manhattan last year and was third in the BC Turf..

Pure Prize was a Grade II winner, now successful sire..

They can't really be called dreadful..

All nice (but not stellar) OLDER horses. They haven't had a real "classic" 3yo colt since Easy Goer's year inspite of Rhythm having been a BCJ winner. After all, we are talking about IC prospects as a "classic" colt.

Good Reward was better than Dancing Forever and was a nearly perfect 10f horse. Too bad he couldn't do it on dirt. If I owned Dancing Forever or Pure Prize, I'd be bragging on them from here to Kingdom Come but neither was on par with some of the monster fillies that the Phipps' have campaigned.