Imperial Council ?

[Linny]

http://www.sequoiaracing.com/
Thank you. I remember reading about them last fall. I had figured that Sequoia was the racing name of a Phipps family member but it looks like it's not.

[NTamm1215]

I find it hilarious that Dunkirk has gotten absolutely slammed on this board but Imperial Council has been considered a "sleeper" for quite some time both here and with a number of "experts."

If Dunkirk capitalized on a terrific pace setup in his debut then what exactly did Imperial Council do when he broke his maiden in career start #2? They went pitifully slow to the half and considering Professor Z had a disastrous start and then made a woefully premature move, IC had EVERYTHING go his way. American Dance broke his maiden in his next start when he beat the mighty Aswaaq and was then drowned by Old Fashioned. Professor Z beat a horrible field of maidens on 11/1 at the Big A then beat an equally terrible N1X field on the inner. He was exposed at Oaklawn in an ungraded stake.

I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT

[Linny]

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

Dunkirk could turn out like Court Vision in a way. He kept winning and running visually impressive but s l o w races. When he was put to it, he came up short. (I refer to his early career on dirt, clearly he's better on grass.)

I have no issue with Shug. As a (primarily) private trainer, he's had minimal input into his stock. He gets what Phipps breeds. The Phipps' have developed many amazing "filly families" but the colts... well. Also, mares like Inside Information and Heavenly Prize who were monstresses on the track and beautifully bred have been less than stellar broodies for them. That's not Shug's fault. If you'd asked most bloodstock experts in 1997 or so what they thought the next decade looked like for Shug the'd have mentioned mares like those and others producing stellar runners. I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Linny

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

Dunkirk could turn out like Court Vision in a way. He kept winning and running visually impressive but s l o w races. When he was put to it, he came up short. (I refer to his early career on dirt, clearly he's better on grass.)

I have no issue with Shug. As a (primarily) private trainer, he's had minimal input into his stock. He gets what Phipps breeds. The Phipps' have developed many amazing "filly families" but the colts... well. Also, mares like Inside Information and Heavenly Prize who were monstresses on the track and beautifully bred have been less than stellar broodies for them. That's not Shug's fault. If you'd asked most bloodstock experts in 1997 or so what they thought the next decade looked like for Shug the'd have mentioned mares like those and others producing stellar runners. I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

How dare you call Leading the Parade dreadful..lol

[jinjin]

I agree that the Phipps colts have been disappointing. As to Inside Information, she did produce champion 3yr old filly, Smuggler. Does anyone know what happened to Colors Flying (first foal out of Storm Flag Flying by A.P. Indy)? He's working again at Payson. I was just wondering if he was hurt or had a problem after training last summer at Saratoga and never making a start.

[lemoncrush]

Originally Posted by Linny

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

His debut was the race that opened my eyes, mostly due to being totally surprised that a Shug horse was so game 1st time out, and that his pedigree suggested he would be far more effective routing than sprinting.

At this point, ihs hype isn't based on credentials, as much as it is potential.

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm rooting for this horse. I made one of biggest lifetime scores on his dam, Jaramar Rain, when she broke her maiden at Keeneland a few years ago. Plus, a friend of mine is one of his owners.

I agree, however, with Linny. His debut was more exciting than his subsequent win....though he did win fairly easily that day. In retrospect, maybe we overrated that race, but Hello Broadway is still pretty good.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm rooting for this horse. I made one of biggest lifetime scores on his dam, Jaramar Rain, when she broke her maiden a few years ago. Plus, a friend of mine is one of his owners.

I agree, however, with Linny. His debut was more exciting than his subsequent win....though he did win fairly easily that day. In retrospect, maybe we overrated that race, but Hello Broadway is still pretty good.

I remember that race like it was yesterday. If I remember correctly, it was at Keenland (pre poly) she was the one (and came up the golden rail) and went off at 8-1. It's funny how you remember the good ones. Thanks again for that one.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I remember that race like it was yesterday. If I remember correctly, it was at Keenland (pre poly) she was the one (and came up the golden rail) and went off at 8-1. It's funny how you remember the good ones. Thanks again for that one.

She was 16:1.

You went on vacation when she won and brought me back a bottle of rum as thanks.

[Linny]

At this point the only colts with credentials are Midshipman, Vineyard Haven and to a lesser extent, Pioneerof the Nile and Old Fashioned. With the top 2 in Dubai, the other two lead the pack, with OF getting the edge because Pioneer has never run on dirt. Square Eddie ranks 3rd. From there on back it's all based on potential. We get a preview on Fri with the Hutcheson (Hello Broadway who beat IC and Break Water Edison return.) but it may be that the best of the classic colts is still working on allowance conditions.
Imperial Council could turn out well. His "shins" have given him time to grow, which should suit a colt of his breeding. Depending on what he faces and how he does it, I'd not knock him, but I don't have him ranked in my Top12 yet either.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Linny

I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

Good Reward was a dual Grade I winner... Dancing Forever won the Manhattan last year and was third in the BC Turf..

Pure Prize was a Grade II winner, now successful sire..


They can't really be called dreadful..

[Linny]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Good Reward was a dual Grade I winner... Dancing Forever won the Manhattan last year and was third in the BC Turf..

Pure Prize was a Grade II winner, now successful sire..


They can't really be called dreadful..

All nice (but not stellar) OLDER horses. They haven't had a real "classic" 3yo colt since Easy Goer's year inspite of Rhythm having been a BCJ winner. After all, we are talking about IC prospects as a "classic" colt.

Good Reward was better than Dancing Forever and was a nearly perfect 10f horse. Too bad he couldn't do it on dirt. If I owned Dancing Forever or Pure Prize, I'd be bragging on them from here to Kingdom Come but neither was on par with some of the monster fillies that the Phipps' have campaigned.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I find it hilarious that Dunkirk has gotten absolutely slammed on this board but Imperial Council has been considered a "sleeper" for quite some time both here and with a number of "experts."

If Dunkirk capitalized on a terrific pace setup in his debut then what exactly did Imperial Council do when he broke his maiden in career start #2? They went pitifully slow to the half and considering Professor Z had a disastrous start and then made a woefully premature move, IC had EVERYTHING go his way. American Dance broke his maiden in his next start when he beat the mighty Aswaaq and was then drowned by Old Fashioned. Professor Z beat a horrible field of maidens on 11/1 at the Big A then beat an equally terrible N1X field on the inner. He was exposed at Oaklawn in an ungraded stake.

I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT

It's hard to play the game without drugs dont you think.. Shug's barn was very live in 08 and the girls have done qute well over the years..

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT

So does that make you a Marty Wolfson fan now?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

So does that make you a Marty Wolfson fan now?

I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT

Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts

I'm not going to wage the chemical warfare argument with you, so if that's the path you're choosing then that's fine.

My point is that Criminologist finished 2007 looking like a very serious turf mare for 2008 as she closed the year with four very sharp turf races. What we got from her in 2008 was a narrow win in a horrible version of the Beaugay, a no-show in the Just A Game (which a Frankel trainee who has made 15 starts won), a no-show in the Diana, a narrow win in the Noble Damsel and a loss to an allowance horse in the Athenia.

If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT

You never know where the blame lies, but it seems as if the Phipps Stable has "struggled" lately (against expectations). Some may say that it's Shug's fault. I think they have had a hard time finding successful crosses with all those Private Account, Seeking the Gold, Danzig, and Easy Goer mares. Their stable has had the same level of "success" as Claiborne, where they board all their mares, and I don't see Shug training the Claiborne horses any more, so it's hard to state definitively that he's underachieving with the Phipps/Janney stock.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT

This seems a bizarre comment to me. What do you base this on? What exactly do you think Shug does wrong with his stock?

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts

She would have been about fourth string for Frankel.