2008 Kentucky Derby follow up questions

[RollerDoc]

I am seeking some responses as to why I feel Big Brown's victory in the 2008 Kentucky Derby was not celebrated nearly as much as his accomplishment deserves to be. I have watched this race now over 100 times and please tell me what i am missing.

My take:

I saw an incredible horse run from the 20th post, (in the most storied horse race) including positioning himself through the cavalry charge, FIVE WIDE on two turns, and at the top of the stretch he shot like a rocket to win by nearly five lengths. Say what you want about the arguably weaker competition (than past years), but please tell me why this was not a victory for the ages considering the degree of difficulty of the chemistry of this race, and the post position he had to overcome, not to mention the margin of victory?

I honestly do respect the opinions on this board. I am just looking for comments based on this one race. Let's leave out all of the owner/trainer/jockey/other races and just discuss my questions above.
Thanks...and if you haven't seen this race in a while, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9H_G4ztIU

[Echo Farm]

I think it was one of the better Derby wins in recent history, but you have stated why it hasn't been celebrated enough.

Owners/trainer/jockey as well as the cloud that Eight Belles' death put on the race. It seems that more lines were written about those 4 factors than the race or Big Brown.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

I think it was one of the better Derby wins in recent history, but you have stated why it hasn't been celebrated enough.

Owners/trainer/jockey as well as the cloud that Eight Belles' death put on the race. It seems that more lines were written about those 4 factors than the race or Big Brown.

I guess my point was that the circumstances in which he won, and challenges that he overcame, didn't seem to be highlighted nearly as much as him just winning.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

But a victory for the ages? Come on...

Maybe I get too wrapped up in the pageantry of it all. I am just not convinced the field was that bad.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Really? So who were the good horses he beat that day?

That day (in May) Col. John, Tale of Ekati, and Eight Belles were three very good horses.

[Betsy]

I don't want to criticize, but wouldn't a performance for the ages (let's stick to the KY Derby) be Secretariat's Derby ? How about Seattle Slew? He actually beat a dreadful field, but he broke terribly and literally bulled his way through the field. I was no fan of Alysheba, but his Derby was remarkable - if he hadn't picked himself up, McCarron probably wouldn't have been killed.

There are impressive performances and then there are legendary performances. Not every one of the former is the latter. Thunder Gulch had a terrible post - I know 16 is not quite 20, and he won very well......but it was hardly legendary. What's wrong with saying Big Brown was impressive and leaving it there? He won the Derby - his name will go down in history. Better horses than he will be far less famous because of it.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Holy bull did it his entire 3 year old season against MUCH better competition.

Mike Smith lets the bull roll!

But there is cause for Concern!

What a hero!

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I am seeking some responses as to why I feel Big Brown's victory in the 2008 Kentucky Derby was not celebrated nearly as much as his accomplishment deserves to be. I have watched this race now over 100 times and please tell me what i am missing.

My take:

I saw an incredible horse run from the 20th post, (in the most storied horse race) including positioning himself through the cavalry charge, FIVE WIDE on two turns, and at the top of the stretch he shot like a rocket to win by nearly five lengths. Say what you want about the arguably weaker competition (than past years), but please tell me why this was not a victory for the ages considering the degree of difficulty of the chemistry of this race, and the post position he had to overcome, not to mention the margin of victory?

I honestly do respect the opinions on this board. I am just looking for comments based on this one race. Let's leave out all of the owner/trainer/jockey/other races and just discuss my questions above.
Thanks...and if you haven't seen this race in a while, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9H_G4ztIU

the most obvious answer is you're overrating it.

why do you think you cling so tightly to something like this?

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

the most obvious answer is you're overrating it.

why do you think you cling so tightly to something like this?

I think that is fair for you to say considering the majority of MY posts this past year were Pro- Big Brown. To answer, I would say I am no fan of the Chicago Cubs, but the reason they get so much attention each year is because they haven't won the World Series in 100 years. No horse had won from post 20 in nearly as long either, so I feel it is worth clinging to.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I am seeking some responses as to why I feel Big Brown's victory in the 2008 Kentucky Derby was not celebrated nearly as much as his accomplishment deserves to be. I have watched this race now over 100 times and please tell me what i am missing.

My take:

I saw an incredible horse run from the 20th post, (in the most storied horse race) including positioning himself through the cavalry charge, FIVE WIDE on two turns, and at the top of the stretch he shot like a rocket to win by nearly five lengths. Say what you want about the arguably weaker competition (than past years), but please tell me why this was not a victory for the ages considering the degree of difficulty of the chemistry of this race, and the post position he had to overcome, not to mention the margin of victory?

I honestly do respect the opinions on this board. I am just looking for comments based on this one race. Let's leave out all of the owner/trainer/jockey/other races and just discuss my questions above.
Thanks...and if you haven't seen this race in a while, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9H_G4ztIU

I have no idea what chemistry you are talking about. He had a lousey post and was wide but he was also clear of any trouble. But, he was a very good horse against a very medicore field.
Other reasons that also took away/negated the celebration: Eight Bells, IEAH, Dutrow/steriod talk, The Belmont.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I have watched this race now over 100 times and please tell me what i am missing.

100 times?
I think the thing you are missing might be a decent hobby.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

100 times?
I think the thing you are missing might be a decent hobby.

glad i'm not alone.....

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by miraja2

100 times?
I think the thing you are missing might be a decent hobby.

Fortunately the race is only two minutes long so I haven't invested that much time since May. Now if I would have watch the two hour pre-race, that wouldn't sit well with my girlfriend.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by miraja2

100 times?
I think the thing you are missing might be a decent hobby.

Watching Youtube videos doesn't qualify as a hobby? Oops.

[Soaring Softly]

Quoted from Jay Hovdey's piece in Sunday's DRF:

"Big Brown is as good a 3-year-old champion as we've seen in the last decade."

Well at least he didn't say "the best".

Both Tiznow(2000) and Point Given(2001) would have eaten Big Brown for lunch! Bernardini(2006) would embarrass the 2008 Derby field, and Smarty Jones(2004) was brilliance that Big Brown didn't begin to see in his short career. And, though he wasn't named Champion, there was Barbaro(2006). Big Brown might stand on his tip-toes and punch Barbaro in the knee!

I love Jay Hovdey, but his statement above was driven by the "today", and, in making that statement, he forgot a few horses that might have made Big Brown an afterthought.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Soaring Softly

Quoted from Jay Hovdey's piece in Sunday's DRF:

"Big Brown is as good a 3-year-old champion as we've seen in the last decade."

Well at least he didn't say "the best".

Both Tiznow(2000) and Point Given(2001) would have eaten Big Brown for lunch! Bernardini(2006) would embarrass the 2008 Derby field, and Smarty Jones(2004) was brilliance that Big Brown didn't begin to see in his short career. And, though he wasn't named Champion, there was Barbaro(2006). Big Brown might stand on his tip-toes and punch Barbaro in the knee!

I love Jay Hovdey, but his statement above was driven by the "today", and, in making that statement, he forgot a few horses that might have made Big Brown an afterthought.

All I heard leading up to the BCC a couple of years ago how Bernardini was going to eat Invasor's lunch and we all saw the brilliance of Invasor. You just never know when you deal with hypotheticals.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Soaring Softly

Quoted from Jay Hovdey's piece in Sunday's DRF:

"Big Brown is as good a 3-year-old champion as we've seen in the last decade."

And, though he wasn't named Champion, there was Barbaro(2006). Big Brown might stand on his tip-toes and punch Barbaro in the knee!

In Barbaro's Kentucky Derby, the field seemed to be strong with contenders like Jazil, Sinister Minister, Sharp Humor, Sweetnorthernsaint, Bluegrass Cat, Lawyer Ron, and Brother Derek. Perhaps I've missed some others.

Barbaro's victory after watching again was more impressive than Big Brown's victory from the stretch to the wire. I still might argue that Big Brown positioning himself to the stretch from post 20 vs. Barbaro doing it from post 8 is worthy of my continued discussion here. In that hypothetical scenario, I am fairly sure Barbaro would have beaten Big Brown by 2 - 2/12 lengths. If Big Brown was in the 9 post, I think he has a chance to make this an incredibly close race.

Regardless of my comments above, I do have another question in reference to the 2006 Kentucky Derby. Why weren't Discreet Cat or Bernardini entered in that race? If they were, that field would have been completely loaded.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

In Barbaro's Kentucky Derby, the field seemed to be strong with contenders like Jazil, Sinister Minister, Sharp Humor, Sweetnorthernsaint, Bluegrass Cat, Lawyer Ron, and Brother Derek. Perhaps I've missed some others.

Barbaro's victory after watching again was more impressive than Big Brown's victory from the stretch to the wire. I still might argue that Big Brown positioning himself to the stretch from post 20 vs. Barbaro doing it from post 8 is worthy of my continued discussion here. In that hypothetical scenario, I am fairly sure Barbaro would have beaten Big Brown by 2 - 2/12 lengths. If Big Brown was in the 9 post, I think he has a chance to make this an incredibly close race.

Regardless of my comments above, I do have another question in reference to the 2006 Kentucky Derby. Why weren't Discreet Cat or Bernardini entered in that race? If they were, that field would have been completely loaded.

bernardini was very lightly raced at that point, the preakness was only his fourth (or maybe fifth?) lifetime start i believe. he was under everyone's radar until the withers. even had they wanted to run in the derby, he wouldn't have had the earnings to get in the gate.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I am seeking some responses as to why I feel Big Brown's victory in the 2008 Kentucky Derby was not celebrated nearly as much as his accomplishment deserves to be. I have watched this race now over 100 times and please tell me what i am missing.

My take:

I saw an incredible horse run from the 20th post, (in the most storied horse race) including positioning himself through the cavalry charge, FIVE WIDE on two turns, and at the top of the stretch he shot like a rocket to win by nearly five lengths. Say what you want about the arguably weaker competition (than past years), but please tell me why this was not a victory for the ages considering the degree of difficulty of the chemistry of this race, and the post position he had to overcome, not to mention the margin of victory?

I honestly do respect the opinions on this board. I am just looking for comments based on this one race. Let's leave out all of the owner/trainer/jockey/other races and just discuss my questions above.
Thanks...and if you haven't seen this race in a while, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9H_G4ztIU

Great horse, but WAY too much baggage to look past. Is it the horses fault? No. But you cannot just dismiss it as to why the horse doesn't get the acclaim you think it deserves.

BB's win in the Derby was stellar, from the 20. But is it any more impressive or more history defying that a NY bred gelding winning it? Or a horse coming in off a five week lay off? My point is, all horses have sh*t to overcome when they leave the gate, whether they are running in the Derby or in some $5,000 N1Y claimer at Penn National.

Not to mention, BB was what, 2-1? 5-2? He WAS SUPPOSED TO DO WHAT HE DID. He set the bar high, people bought in, and he met those expectations. That's great, but when the money was on the table BB really spit the bit. He wasn't going to get high praise and recognition without winning the Triple Crown.

For two reasons, I think. A) Again, way too much baggage to just gloss over and move past. B) The American public, and racing fans have seen numerous horses rise up, win the Derby, win the Preakness and then not come through in the Belmont. Going 2 for 3 is now old hat. Not that it's unimpressive, because it is...but it's a lot like those triple lutzs in figure skating...at first, it was new, shiny, WOW type of thing, but now, it happens a lot and it's not as impressive.

BB was a great horse, but it's time to move on.

[jwkniska]

the horse run a whale of a race and then some. was sitting right in front of the starting gate from it. unfortunately, couldn't bet on him, as only 1 horse in 133 years won from the 20 hole and I'm not taking 5-2 going against that much history.