to geld or not to geld

magic_idol · #1 01-16-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

In Australia/New Zealand, it is not unusual to see geldings winning the major races that the mares don't. Especially in NZ, many prospects are bred on farms that keep only a handful of mares as a sideline and they don't have room to pasture their yearlings separately, so the colts must be gelded.

For a long time Aussie breeders were convinced that any import was a better stallion prospect than the local product, so locally bred colts were routinely gelded. Three of the last five AJC Derby winners have been geldings.

The Euros, on the other hand, disdain geldings and won't let them run in their Group 1 races, which is why Teleprompter had to come over here to get a G1 win. And why Donativum is considering trying for the Kentucky Derby rather than his own.

Not going against you as i know very little of euro racing but Takeover Target & Saintly were both geldings & won group 1s in europe

SniperSB23 · #2 01-16-2009, 10:24 PM

Really? This whole thread went by with mostly serious posts and not a single Golden Missile reference? Low point in Nerdy Trail history.

sumitas · #3 01-16-2009, 11:14 PM

tx friends .

my NY bred colt, foaled 3/25/07 and raised on the farm where he was born, has been out for breaking since Dec.23 at Quiet Woman Training Center . They had stalls that opened up then whereas other facilities nearby were full . I have no trainer yet, just a short list of 3 at this point . The mgr of Quiet Woman says he is "very difficult and his testicles get in the way." She says he is behind schedule . On a positive note she says he is conformed well, is sound, and eats well . He is a big boy and I'd prefer to see how he runs before considering the geld .

So we have arrived at this point . He will continue his training and she will keep me updated . My plans are to turn him out back at Irish Hill after he's broke until April . By then I will have a trainer, etc.

SniperSB23 · #4 01-16-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

tx friends .

my NY bred colt, foaled 3/25/07 and raised on the farm where he was born, has been out for breaking since Dec.23 at Quiet Woman Training Center . They had stalls that opened up then whereas other facilities nearby were full . I have no trainer yet, just a short list of 3 at this point . The mgr of Quiet Woman says he is "very difficult and his testicles get in the way." She says he is behind schedule . On a positive note she says he is conformed well, is sound, and eats well . He is a big boy and I'd prefer to see how he runs before considering the geld .

So we have arrived at this point . He will continue his training and she will keep me updated . My plans are to turn him out back at Irish Hill after he's broke until April . By then I will have a trainer, etc.

Assuming you're a real person you seem like someone who cares about the horses' welfare. So look at the situation at Hollywood Park this week where some 3yo colt freaked out and killed himself and a 6yo gelding. Do you really want to have your horse pull the same and know that you said the horse shouldn't be gelded?

sumitas · #5 01-16-2009, 11:50 PM

My colt is a friendly sort, mild mannered but firm, independent and not craving attention . He is not a nut case, not high strung . We're going to give him more time to acclimate himself to the breaking process before a decision is made to geld .

SniperSB23 · #6 01-16-2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

My colt is a friendly sort, mild mannered but firm, independent and not craving attention . He is not a nut case, not high strung . We're going to give him more time to acclimate himself to the breaking process before a decision is made to geld .

"very difficult and his testicles get in the way."

Sounds like he literally may be a nut case.

Danzig · #7 01-17-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

"very difficult and his testicles get in the way."

Sounds like he literally may be a nut case.

lol

paisjpq · #8 01-17-2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

My colt is a friendly sort, mild mannered but firm, independent and not craving attention . He is not a nut case, not high strung . We're going to give him more time to acclimate himself to the breaking process before a decision is made to geld .

your description of your horse directly contradicts that of the trainer....she's around the horse every day. You should listen to her. He's not a stallion prospect by any means and you are probably doing him a disservice by keeping him intact....that is if you actually want to see him get to the races. The longer you wait the more "difficult" he is likely to get....what she is actually telling you is that the horse is an ass.hole and has to have his ass kicked in order to get him to do his job....are you really a fan of having your horse beaten?

hoovesupsideyourhead · #9 01-18-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paisjpq

your description of your horse directly contradicts that of the trainer....she's around the horse every day. You should listen to her. He's not a stallion prospect by any means and you are probably doing him a disservice by keeping him intact....that is if you actually want to see him get to the races. The longer you wait the more "difficult" he is likely to get....what she is actually telling you is that the horse is an ass.hole and has to have his ass kicked in order to get him to do his job....are you really a fan of having your horse beaten?

wants to geld the entire male race^^^ humans

Danzig · #10 01-17-2009, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

tx friends .

my NY bred colt, foaled 3/25/07 and raised on the farm where he was born, has been out for breaking since Dec.23 at Quiet Woman Training Center . They had stalls that opened up then whereas other facilities nearby were full . I have no trainer yet, just a short list of 3 at this point . The mgr of Quiet Woman says he is "very difficult and his testicles get in the way." She says he is behind schedule . On a positive note she says he is conformed well, is sound, and eats well . He is a big boy and I'd prefer to see how he runs before considering the geld .
So we have arrived at this point . He will continue his training and she will keep me updated . My plans are to turn him out back at Irish Hill after he's broke until April . By then I will have a trainer, etc.

the positives you mention don't negate the negatives. he's behind schedule, very difficult. having good conformation won't fix those.
even if he turns out a good runner, i don't think his breeding would make him a prospect. the manager, who is probably well-versed in this game, suggests you geld. i think you should follow her advice.
you may never get to see him run if he only becomes more difficult. be pro-active, not reactive. geld him, i doubt you'll ever regret it. while not gelding him-may cause plenty more problems down the road.

Pedigree Ann · #11 01-17-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_idol

Not going against you as i know very little of euro racing but Takeover Target & Saintly were both geldings & won group 1s in europe

The only G1-winning Saintly I know of was an Aussie - Cox/Melbourne Cup winner; his only venture overseas was to Japan, where he became ill and couldn't start.

You're right about the Euro G1 sprints, though (and the Cup races, too) - it's mostly the classic-type races that the Euros don't want geldings in, because those are the races that determine those colts worthy of breeding on. That said, Takeover Target was another Aussie with established top-level class Down Under.

It's actually a weird mindset in England regarding entires vs. geldings. Entires are trying to make themselves stallions, so they often run in G3s and LRs where they might not quite fit to get that precious notation, instead of in the big handicaps with a couple times the money but no official black type. So you have a highly competitive 30-runner race worth $200K+ not 'worthy' of black-type, but a 5-runner race worth $35K is. Owners of good geldings in a country where purses for everyday races make no pretense of covering expenses know where to run.

One of my favorite handicappers in Britain for the last couple of years has been Borderlescott. He was able to compete in G3s and LRs, but he could earn more in the non-black-type handicaps like his favorite, the Steward's Cup at Goodwood (a win, a short-head second, and a blanket-finish 3rd) so his 'offical' stakes record only hints at how he earned his money. Even though he won a G1 last summer, his handicap earnings still exceed his 'stakes' earnings. And since he is a gelding, he doesn't need group wins to put in the stallion ads.