Jockey Club Gold Cup

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Scav, heart is a great thing, but Zapper would have blown Tiznow so far off the track that he wouldnt have known what hit him. I really think that those who romanticize the sport and certain horses are great, but I think it often clouds their sense of reality. Noone in the world I ever saw in 24 years of watching this sport was gonna beat Ghostzapper that day in the BCC, noone. And Roses performance that day remains the single most underrated performance in history. he would have won any other running and was dead game.

You have got to be joking. He beats Cigar? Or alysheba?

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You have got to be joking. He beats Cigar? Or alysheba?

LOL!!!
Non sheet guys are pretty funny!!! Alysheba? Cigar? Do you ave any idea just how fast Zapper was? I suggest you hit the archives at TG and take a look. he was absolutely insanely fast. he would have crushed either,

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by oracle80

LOL!!!
Non sheet guys are pretty funny!!! Alysheba? Cigar? Do you ave any idea just how fast Zapper was? I suggest you hit the archives at TG and take a look. he was absolutely insanely fast. he would have crushed either,

That wasnt what i was questioning although that is debatable. I was questioning whether or not roses in may "would have won any other running" of the BCC.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

That wasnt what i was questioning although that is debatable. I was questioning whether or not roses in may "would have won any other running" of the BCC.

his number was faster than both wins, as was his fractional energy use breakdown. I say yes, his performance was better than the wins by the two you named. You guys seem to forget how nice that field was and how far back the rest of em were.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

That wasnt what i was questioning although that is debatable. I was questioning whether or not roses in may "would have won any other running" of the BCC.

You question whether Roses In May would have won any other BC Classics? He would have won most of them. RIM ran good enough that day to win most other years. I'd have to look through the archives, but off the top of my head I would say that the race that RIM ran in the Classic would have won the BC Classic probaby at least 7 times out of the last 10 years, probably even more. He ran huge that day to GZ. He beat the rest of the field by about 3-4 lengths.

With regard to Alysheba, I was a huge Alysheba fan. I bet him in the Derby. Even though I was ahuge fan of his, I will tell you that GZ would have killed Alysheba. It would have been no contest. GZ is in a totally different league. GZ is a freak. Alysheba was a really good horse but GZ is another league.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You question whether Roses In May would have won any other BC Classics? He would have won most of them. RIM ran good enough that day to win most other years. I'd have to look through the archives, but off the top of my head I would say that the race that RIM ran in the Classic would have won the BC Classic probaby at least 7 times out of the last 10 years, probably even more. He ran huge that day to GZ. He beat the rest of the field by about 3-4 lengths.

With regard to Alysheba, I was a huge Alysheba fan. I bet him in the Derby. Even though I was ahuge fan of his, I will tell you that GZ would have killed Alysheba. It would have been no contest. GZ is in a totally different league. GZ is a freak. Alysheba was a really good horse but GZ is another league.

When you say "GZ would have killed Alysheba" and "GZ is another league", you probably should add "when GZ was able to run".

How fast would GZ have run that BCC if it was HIS 9th race of the year?

My response to statements re GZ is usually, yeah, but what if Alysheba and GZ raced against each other 9 times in a year? Which horse would win more? I think there's a good chance it would have been Alysheba. If so, who's the "greater" horse? Why should greatness be determined by a single race match race? Why not best of 9?

Don't get me wrong. I think GZ was phenomenal, and agree, too, that RIM would have won many a BCC. But when comparing two horses, there's more to it than assuming they each run their best race. Some like Alysheba and Cigar (and Mineshaft!) demonstrate excellence by running at the very top level race after race.

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

When you say "GZ would have killed Alysheba" and "GZ is another league", you probably should add "when GZ was able to run".

How fast would GZ have run that BCC if it was HIS 9th race of the year?

My response to statements re GZ is usually, yeah, but what if Alysheba and GZ raced against each other 9 times in a year? Which horse would win more? I think there's a good chance it would have been Alysheba. If so, who's the "greater" horse? Why should greatness be determined by a single race match race? Why not best of 9?

Don't get me wrong. I think GZ was phenomenal, and agree, too, that RIM would have won many a BCC. But when comparing two horses, there's more to it than assuming they each run their best race. Some like Alysheba and Cigar (and Mineshaft!) demonstrate excellence by running at the very top level race after race.

--Dunbar

I agree with you. There are many criteria to use in determing greatness. GZ was obviously not as duarable as most of the good horses over the years. GZ was a bit fragile. I was simply talking about GZ on his best day. When he ran his race, which he usually did, he could pretty much beat anyone.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree with you. There are many criteria to use in determing greatness. GZ was obviously not as duarable as most of the good horses over the years. GZ was a bit fragile. I was simply talking about GZ on his best day. When he ran his race, which he usually did, he could pretty much beat anyone.

And I agree with your last statement, too.

I just looked up Alysheba's record. He won 6 Grade I's as a 4-yr-old. AND, he set track records at a mile-and-a-quarter at Belmont and the Meadowlands. Not too shabby.

from http://www.equineinfo.com/alison/aly...tm#racedetails

"WON Breeders' Cup Classic (gr. I, 1 1/4 mi.), Santa Anita H (gr. I, 1 1/4 mi., 1:59 4/5), Woodward H (gr. I, 1 1/4 mi., 1:59 2/5, NTR, top-weighted), Meadowlands Cup H (gr. I, 1 1/4 mi., 1:58 4/5, NTR), Charles H. Strub S (gr. I, 1 1/4 mi.), Philip H. Iselin H (gr. 1, 1 1/8 mi.), San Bernardino H (gr. II, 1 1/8 mi.). "

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well GZ did run at the very top level race after race, just not with the regularity that you or some would have liked. Don't really see the relevance of it being his 9th, or 29th race of the year. The horse flat out ran his eyeballs out everytime he stepped foot on the track, minus one time. He was obviously unbelievably talented, but also very fragile. For a very fragile horse he certainly made the most of it. His Classic and Met Mile wins were as scintilating as it gets. Alysheba was great, Cigar was of course great and Mineshaft was as well. They were all a hell of a lot more durable than Zapper. Better than him, I doubt it.

Yes, I agree with everything you said.

[Gander]

GZ was a bit fragile

The understatement of the century. Held together like a glass figurine.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Well GZ did run at the very top level race after race, just not with the regularity that you or some would have liked. Don't really see the relevance of it being his 9th, or 29th race of the year. The horse flat out ran his eyeballs out everytime he stepped foot on the track, minus one time. He was obviously unbelievably talented, but also very fragile. For a very fragile horse he certainly made the most of it. His Classic and Met Mile wins were as scintilating as it gets. Alysheba was great, Cigar was of course great and Mineshaft was as well. They were all a hell of a lot more durable than Zapper. Better than him, I doubt it.

easy goer was fragile, shugs work with him was phenomenal. gz was made of glass. and no way i'd breed to that, not in ten million years. just what the sport needs!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by oracle80

LOL!!!
Non sheet guys are pretty funny!!! Alysheba? Cigar? Do you ave any idea just how fast Zapper was? I suggest you hit the archives at TG and take a look. he was absolutely insanely fast. he would have crushed either,

assuming he gets the easy lead again, yeah, maybe....that's the funny thing about theories, you can insert any horse, any random event.

i always like the inaugural bcc...shame that slew o gold was off that day, they shouldn't have run him, but i understand why they did.