Barbaro (the Champ)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Independent George

Bernardini easily??? Why is that ? Barbaro beat more horses in one race than Bernardini beat in 3 and dont tell me Bernardini beat smaller but more quality horses than barbaro beat. In the Travers there was ONE grade one winner & one grade 2 winner. Lots of horses look good beating 4 & 5 horse fields.

It's not a knock on the ability of Barbaro. I think he was a really good horse also. I just think Bernardini is in a different league. I could be wrong though. I think Bernardini has been one-upping Barbaro from the start though. I know it's only one way of measuring things but look at the Beyer's for the two horses. In his final TC prep, Barbaro got a 103 in the Florida Derby. Bernardini got a 104 in the Withers. Barbaro breaks out with a career high 111 in the Derby. Bernardini gets a 113 in the Preakness. Think about that for a second here. As awesome as Barbaro was in winning the Derby, he would have had to come up with an even better performance figurewise in order to have beaten Bernardini that day. Could he have done it? Nobody knows but I believe that Bernardini wins that race even if Barbaro doesn't break down. Bernardini comes back with a 114 in the Jim Dandy and a 116 in the Travers. That's now three races in a row that he's bested Barbaro's career best. Career average Beyer....Barbaro 96.8, Bernardini 100.8 How about using Bluegrass Cat as a measuring stick. Barbaro beats him by 6 1/2 at 10f. Bernardini beat him by 7 1/2. This is supposedly when Bluegrass Cat is a much improved horse.

It's entirely possible that Barbaro wasn't at his peak and could have improved even more. I don't know if that's true or not but what I do believe IS true is that Barbaro would have HAD to improve more to reach the level that Bernardini is at now. And Bernardini still hasn't even been asked to run.

Well I know it's probably not going to happen. It was merely a suggestion that should Bernardini go on to defeat open stakes company, perhaps a "sharing" of awards, if you will, would be in order. The reason being, Barbaro dominated the 3 year old division, and why punish a horse who did nothing wrong. That's an undefeated horse in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others. But King, that wasn't the point of the thread, and perhaps you failed to read the entire argument as a whole. We could wait to have this debate at the end of the year. But Oracle, the first thing I stated at the beginning was how appalled I was that the ESPN announcers had proclaimed him champion three year old by virtue of his win in the Travers. They are the ones who should have waited. We all know people, voters probably were watching, and can be swayed by what the media is telling them is truth. Hopeful the Eclipse voters take their job seriously, and don't cave to "what everyone else is doing" syndrome, ala Oscar voters "Crash".

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

Well I know it's probably not going to happen. It was merely a suggestion that should Bernardini go on to defeat open stakes company, perhaps a "sharing" of awards, if you will, would be in order. The reason being, Barbaro dominated the 3 year old division, and why punish a horse who did nothing wrong. That's an undefeated horse in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others. But King, that wasn't the point of the thread, and perhaps you failed to read the entire argument as a whole. We could wait to have this debate at the end of the year. But Oracle, the first thing I stated at the beginning was how appalled I was that the ESPN announcers had proclaimed him champion three year old by virtue of his win in the Travers. They are the ones who should have waited. We all know people, voters probably were watching, and can be swayed by what the media is telling them is truth. Hopeful the Eclipse voters take their job seriously, and don't cave to "what everyone else is doing" syndrome, ala Oscar voters "Crash".

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

What happens is Discreet Cat comes and wins his next race and then wins the Breeders Cup Classic--I think that would be enough to win the award. So you would have 3 very deserving horses. I think we should be blessed to have had three very very good horses in the same year and two of them are still running. It was like when Alex and Smarty left us, this year someone goes down and there are two more waiting to fill his star status.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

well, then if we are going to give it now, it should go to barbaro. his winter/spring is better than berns spring/summer. IMO of course....


barbaro, undefeated til the preakness, when he DNF'd.(dammit)
bernardini, undefeated til he ran his first race....hehe, sorry...HAD to.

barbaro, winner on turf, dirt and in the slop.
bern--dirt and slop.
barbaro, winner of the ky derby...
bernie, winner of the preakness...

barbaro, winner of the florida derby.
bern, winner of the withers.

barbaro, largest margin of victory in 60 years! over 19..
bern, largest in 35 over 5.

barbaro, ran 10f succesfully on the first saturday in may.
bern, on the last in august.

barbaro, won the derby after a five week layoff, first time in how many years?

barbaro, seven starts, six wins, one dnf.
bern, six starts, five wins. think he finished fourth in his lone loss in january. (anyone know who won that race??)

barbaro, 2 gr1's, 2 gr 3's
bern--2 gr 1's, 1 gr 2, 1 gr 3

barbaro--2.3 mill
bern---1.6 mill

Originally Posted by Danzig188

well, then if we are going to give it now, it should go to barbaro. his winter/spring is better than berns spring/summer. IMO of course....


barbaro, undefeated til the preakness, when he DNF'd.(dammit)
bernardini, undefeated til he ran his first race....hehe, sorry...HAD to.

barbaro, winner on turf, dirt and in the slop.
bern--dirt and slop.
barbaro, winner of the ky derby...
bernie, winner of the preakness...

barbaro, winner of the florida derby.
bern, winner of the withers.

barbaro, largest margin of victory in 60 years! over 19..
bern, largest in 35 over 5.

barbaro, ran 10f succesfully on the first saturday in may.
bern, on the last in august.

barbaro, won the derby after a five week layoff, first time in how many years?

barbaro, seven starts, six wins, one dnf.
bern, six starts, five wins. think he finished fourth in his lone loss in january. (anyone know who won that race??)

barbaro, 2 gr1's, 2 gr 3's
bern--2 gr 1's, 1 gr 2, 1 gr 3

barbaro--2.3 mill
bern---1.6 mill

I like how you use the Withers instead of the Travers or Jim Dandy.

[Danzig]

they were both in the spring, at about the same time, which is why i put that up. had everything to do with the calendar...

hey, do your own comparison!!

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Isn't this the same thing they did with Barbaro though? Wasn't he basically conceded the TC after the Derby and even though he hasn't been able to race anymore, before Bernardini won the Travers, weren't people ready to concede the 3yo title to Barbaro without seeing what other 3yo's might emerge in the second half of the year. I will agree with u that we should wait till the year is over to decide the champions but I don't agree that we should wait any more on Bernardini than we did with Barbaro. Besides, this is what the fun is on these forums. If we waited till seasons were over to annoint champs or wait till careers are over to place horses in all-time perspectives, this place would be boring.

yes, that's true but I wasn't the one who stated we were wasting our time debating the matter at the present. Things have a way of working themselves out...if Bernardini loses in the next two events against older horses, which I'm suspecting he will...this debate is really going to heat up

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

All of this is heresay until we see what happens now. But, I find it hard to believe that people not at least think Barbaro and Bernardini are at least on even terms now when it comes to 3 year old voting. Cajun, you seem like a very nice person, but seriously what does Bernardini need to do? This is 3 year old racing in the summer months, small fields. If your criteria for a quality race is having a big field, take a look at this years Florida derby. 11 horse field, with Barbaro, Sunriver, who aside from the win in the Peter pan, has done nothing, and Sharp humor, a horse who wants no part of 1 1/8. The rest of the field is pretty bad. So in reality Barbaro was beating 2 okay horses. I'm not trying to take anything away from barbaro, but to say Bernardini still has to prove something is asinine. You also say he has had nothing but a perfect set up, yeah he has because he dictates the race to everyone else. I'm pretty sure he can run effectively from off the pace, all he did was win the Preakness from off the pace. I think he was on the lead in the Travers because he could. Castellano saw that the two from Pletcher were going to gang up, anbd he just let him go, ala Ghostzapper. We should be enjoying this horse right now, because he may be the best in a long time.

I think that many on this board are looking at Barbaro vs. Bernardini subjectively instead of objectively. I agree with you in that the two are pretty even as far as voting goes. I think that many are overly biased towards Barbaro for emotional and sympathetic reasons. It's as if they can't acknowledge the coming of a potential superhorse because the downfall of another. I won't point out any specific posters, but their arguements are weak, ignorant, hypocritical, or contradictory to the facts. I'm not saying that all of the pro-Barbaro or pro-Bernardini posters are like that...just a few. However, many of the top trainers in the industry are saying that Bernardini is one for the ages and that he would be their pick at this point for the three year old championship. That is a FACT. At this point, I believe that everyone should also just enjoy this horse. He may very well be the next Spectacular Bid, and those kinds of horses are irreplaceable.

Here are some examples of how great some think Bernardini is...

"I think right now whatever he did today, I don't think any horse can beat this horse right now," said winning rider Javier Castellano, who began celebrating his victory at the sixteenth pole.

Winning trainer Tom Albertrani said: "This horse gets better every race. I think he'll be a very tough horse later in the season against the older horses."

"I wanted all the people to recognize that he's a special horse and he's the best 3-year-old right now in the country," Castellano said.

"We know how special a horse Barbaro was, but this certainly showed to us after yesterday how great Bernardini is as well," Tom Albertrani, the trainer of Bernardini, said Sunday morning. "With all of his performances, he always wins by daylight, and I think you have to give him a lot of consideration."

"Bernardini is the 3-year-old champ to me," said Kiaran McLaughlin, the trainer of Belmont Stakes winner Jazil. "That's my opinion, everybody has one. I have a lot of respect for Barbaro. He's done it on both surfaces, dirt and turf. But this horse is just awesome. He has a presence about him. He's just a very, very special horse."

"It's hard to top what Invasor has done, but he is not the horse Bernardini is," Zito said. "Bernardini could beat Invasor five furlongs, six furlongs, a mile and a half, two miles, two and a half miles. He could beat him any day of the week."

"I was just praying he would show up as the phenomenal horse I know him to be — and he did," trainer Tom Albertrani said. "He's just getting sharper every race. It's pretty scary."

"The way he's running, as long as he stays healthy and is on top of his game he's going to be a very serious horse," Albertrani said Sunday morning outside his barn. "When he faces older horses, he'll still be the one to fear. There's more to this horse than we've seen."

"Bernardini is definitely my choice to be a champion," said trainer John Ward, who chased him in vain in the Travers with third-place finisher Dr. Pleasure and with Minister's Bid, who was last in the field of six. "He took on Bluegrass Cat and put him away, and he said goodbye to the rest of them."

"We'll, he's never been challenged," Albertrani said. "Right now, he's been winning by daylight. I don't know how much he's got left until he is challenged. Javier couldn't pull him up after the wire. The more racing he has, the better he's getting."

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

I think that many on this board are looking at Barbaro vs. Bernardini subjectively instead of objectively. I agree with you in that the two are pretty even as far as voting goes. I think that many are overly biased towards Barbaro for emotional and sympathetic reasons. It's as if they can't acknowledge the coming of a potential superhorse because the downfall of another. I won't point out any specific posters, but their arguements are weak, ignorant, hypocritical, or contradictory to the facts. I'm not saying that all of the pro-Barbaro or pro-Bernardini posters are like that...just a few. However, many of the top trainers in the industry are saying that Bernardini is one for the ages and that he would be their pick at this point for the three year old championship. That is a FACT. At this point, I believe that everyone should also just enjoy this horse. He may very well be the next Spectacular Bid, and those kinds of horses are irreplaceable.

Here are some examples of how great some think Bernardini is...

"I think right now whatever he did today, I don't think any horse can beat this horse right now," said winning rider Javier Castellano, who began celebrating his victory at the sixteenth pole.

Winning trainer Tom Albertrani said: "This horse gets better every race. I think he'll be a very tough horse later in the season against the older horses."

"I wanted all the people to recognize that he's a special horse and he's the best 3-year-old right now in the country," Castellano said.

"We know how special a horse Barbaro was, but this certainly showed to us after yesterday how great Bernardini is as well," Tom Albertrani, the trainer of Bernardini, said Sunday morning. "With all of his performances, he always wins by daylight, and I think you have to give him a lot of consideration."

"Bernardini is the 3-year-old champ to me," said Kiaran McLaughlin, the trainer of Belmont Stakes winner Jazil. "That's my opinion, everybody has one. I have a lot of respect for Barbaro. He's done it on both surfaces, dirt and turf. But this horse is just awesome. He has a presence about him. He's just a very, very special horse."

"It's hard to top what Invasor has done, but he is not the horse Bernardini is," Zito said. "Bernardini could beat Invasor five furlongs, six furlongs, a mile and a half, two miles, two and a half miles. He could beat him any day of the week."

"I was just praying he would show up as the phenomenal horse I know him to be — and he did," trainer Tom Albertrani said. "He's just getting sharper every race. It's pretty scary."

"The way he's running, as long as he stays healthy and is on top of his game he's going to be a very serious horse," Albertrani said Sunday morning outside his barn. "When he faces older horses, he'll still be the one to fear. There's more to this horse than we've seen."

"Bernardini is definitely my choice to be a champion," said trainer John Ward, who chased him in vain in the Travers with third-place finisher Dr. Pleasure and with Minister's Bid, who was last in the field of six. "He took on Bluegrass Cat and put him away, and he said goodbye to the rest of them."

"We'll, he's never been challenged," Albertrani said. "Right now, he's been winning by daylight. I don't know how much he's got left until he is challenged. Javier couldn't pull him up after the wire. The more racing he has, the better he's getting."

The whole point of the thread is to show they are not on even terms as this juncture. In fact, Barbaro is INDEED well ahead. Those quotes are from Albertrani, who trains Bernardini, Castellano, the jockey of Bernardini, Kieran, who trains for the shieks, and Ward & Zito who's horses just got crushed by Bernardini. So save face, they'd call him great, a champion. Do me a HUGE favor and watch the travers with the sound off, then watch the KY derby with the sound off. Then get back to me as you watch each race unfold who should be champion. Calling people ignorant because they dont have the same opinion of you is ignorant in itself. To me, most here seem to be suscribing to what the media is telling you to think. Use your eyes and not your ears people and you can clearly SEE who is the better horse.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

The whole point of the thread is to show they are not on even terms as this juncture. In fact, Barbaro is INDEED well ahead. Those quotes are from Albertrani, who trains Bernardini, Castellano, the jockey of Bernardini, Kieran, who trains for the shieks, and Ward & Zito who's horses just got crushed by Bernardini. So save face, they'd call him great, a champion. Do me a HUGE favor and watch the travers with the sound off, then watch the KY derby with the sound off. Then get back to me as you watch each race unfold who should be champion. Calling people ignorant because they dont have the same opinion of you is ignorant in itself. To me, most here seem to be suscribing to what the media is telling you to think. Use your eyes and not your ears people and you can clearly SEE who is the better horse.

You're calling me ignorant? You obviously didn't read my post very well and I wasn't calling out any specific poster. Notice how I said that some of both PRO-BARBARO and PRO-BERNARDINI arguements were hypocritical, ignorant, and contradictory to the Facts. I'm a realist. I see the world as it is and not as how I want it to be. I pointed out all of the facts that I could find from legitimate horse racing people that were talking about the three year old championship. I couldn't find anymore either for or against Barbaro or Bernardini. Otherwise, I would have gladly posted them.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

It's not a knock on the ability of Barbaro. I think he was a really good horse also. I just think Bernardini is in a different league. I could be wrong though. I think Bernardini has been one-upping Barbaro from the start though. I know it's only one way of measuring things but look at the Beyer's for the two horses. In his final TC prep, Barbaro got a 103 in the Florida Derby. Bernardini got a 104 in the Withers. Barbaro breaks out with a career high 111 in the Derby. Bernardini gets a 113 in the Preakness. Think about that for a second here. As awesome as Barbaro was in winning the Derby, he would have had to come up with an even better performance figurewise in order to have beaten Bernardini that day. Could he have done it? Nobody knows but I believe that Bernardini wins that race even if Barbaro doesn't break down. Bernardini comes back with a 114 in the Jim Dandy and a 116 in the Travers. That's now three races in a row that he's bested Barbaro's career best. Career average Beyer....Barbaro 96.8, Bernardini 100.8 How about using Bluegrass Cat as a measuring stick. Barbaro beats him by 6 1/2 at 10f. Bernardini beat him by 7 1/2. This is supposedly when Bluegrass Cat is a much improved horse.

It's entirely possible that Barbaro wasn't at his peak and could have improved even more. I don't know if that's true or not but what I do believe IS true is that Barbaro would have HAD to improve more to reach the level that Bernardini is at now. And Bernardini still hasn't even been asked to run.

Although beyers are a useful tool, I'm not big on them. I'd rather look at the sheets. I'll agree to disagree with you... I'm not sold on Bernardini yet.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Although beyers are a useful tool, I'm not big on them. I'd rather look at the sheets. I'll agree to disagree with you... I'm not sold on Bernardini yet.

What does he need to do for you to be sold? I dont get it. The horse is a multiple Grade I winner. Won two of the four most prestigious races for 3 year olds and he did it in convincing fashion. What else does he need to do!!!!!!!

I am sorry guys, but if Bernardini goes on and either wins one of his last two races or finishes a strong second in both of them then he is the 3 year old champ and he deserves it. Barbaro is awesome and had a remarkable career, but he did not do enough to win the award if Bernardini does the above. I feel his races trumps what Barbaro did. No sharing of the awards, Barbaro deserves to be the winner, but Bernardini deserves it more.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I am sorry guys, but if Bernardini goes on and either wins one of his last two races or finishes a strong second in both of them then he is the 3 year old champ and he deserves it. Barbaro is awesome and had a remarkable career, but he did not do enough to win the award if Bernardini does the above. I feel his races trumps what Barbaro did. No sharing of the awards, Barbaro deserves to be the winner, but Bernardini deserves it more.

this thread is like a dog chasing it's tail. i haven't seen yet where anyone disagreed with the above. it's all been about 'right now' which is pointless anyway, since the awards aren't voted for right now! lol

it's like everyone is arguing, but everyone is essentially on the same side.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

What does he need to do for you to be sold? I dont get it. The horse is a multiple Grade I winner. Won two of the four most prestigious races for 3 year olds and he did it in convincing fashion. What else does he need to do!!!!!!!

I want him to beat more than 4 or 5 horses at a time, Euro! Geesh... why does it matter to you what I think about him? If I had put my appendix QH in a race against 5 miniature horses and he won in a convincing fashion, would I be proclaiming him the next best thing? Nope...

For me to say he's a great horse, I want to see him win against all odds. He's had nothing but a perfect set up every time he's raced. I'm sorry if I'm not so quick to jump on the same bandwagon that you did.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I want him to beat more than 4 or 5 horses at a time, Euro! Geesh... why does it matter to you what I think about him? If I had put my appendix QH in a race against 5 miniature horses and he won in a convincing fashion, would I be proclaiming him the next best thing? Nope...

For me to say he's a great horse, I want to see him win against all odds. He's had nothing but a perfect set up every time he's raced. I'm sorry if I'm not so quick to jump on the same bandwagon that you did.

It isnt Bern's fault that no one shows up for his races. And it seems he races are easy because he dictates what is going on in the race. He doesn't let other horses tell him how the race is going to be run. A horse not only can dominate by winning by a large margin, they also can dominate by controlling the race. This is what Bern does.