Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Pletcher surely is guilty of violations of the rules but these are not smoking guns that people want them to be. Check out what happened to Noel Hickey in Chicago a few years back to really learn how people cheat.

ok, What did Noel Hickey do?
What exactly do I need to search on. If I just put in Chicago and cheater - the search engine will never stop finding stories

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Mepivacaine basically allows a horse to run his/her heart out because it dulls any pain to a horse. You can imagine the effect this would have on a horse's performance. Notable trainer's to have tested positive for having Mepivacaine in their horses are Dutrow, Mullins, Asmussen, and Pletcher. The how many nanograms is a mute issue if you ask me, the question should be why was it in a horse's system in the first place, the answer to me is obvious if you see what the common trait of the vast majority of these trainers horses strengths are/were. There's a common thread.

mepivicaine is regularly used to try to determine where the point of unsoundness. It is hardly a sinister drug unless it was given at high doese close to the race. A few hours after it is given the horse will go back to being unsound. Remember that the testing procedure is strictly a detection device, not a performance enhancement issue.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

ok, What did Noel Hickey do?
What exactly do I need to search on. If I just put in Chicago and cheater - the search engine will never stop finding stories

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinion...ml/1981749.htm

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Mepivacaine is a local anesthetic. While it has therapeutic uses as far as lameness diagnosis and minor surgery goes, it has no business being in a racehorse's system on raceday..

Mepivacaine is allowed to be in a horses system on race day.

Yes, nanograms matter.

There are dosages at which drugs can influence or affect performance, and dosages at which that is impossible. That is the whole point.

A drug positive is an actionable offense, indeed, but not all drug positives are proof of attempting to influence a horses performance.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

mepivicaine is regularly used to try to determine where the point of unsoundness. It is hardly a sinister drug unless it was given at high doese close to the race. A few hours after it is given the horse will go back to being unsound. Remember that the testing procedure is strictly a detection device, not a performance enhancement issue.

I'm curious Chuck what if a trainer is using masking agents such as 'lidocaine', is it possible that would that reduce traces of mepivacaine or other drugs. Everyone seems to be so concerned about the dosage, we tend to neglect the drugs that are not detected.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Riot

Mepivacaine is allowed to be in a horses system on race day.

Yes, nanograms matter.

There are dosages at which drugs can influence or affect performance, and dosages at which that is impossible. That is the whole point.

A drug positive is an actionable offense, indeed, but not all drug positives are proof of attempting to influence a horses performance.

I got this information from from the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium.

The drug, mepivacaine, is banned on race day in every jurisdiction in the country, a so-called Class 2 drug with a high potential to enhance performance because it can deaden pain in a horse's legs. The concentration found in No End in Sight's postrace tests was powerful - 750 times higher than another recent positive for mepivacaine - and resulted in a six-month suspension for Steve Asmussen, one of the country's most prolific and successful trainers and runner-up the last two years in voting for the Eclipse Award as top trainer.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm curious Chuck what if a trainer is using masking agents such as 'lidocaine', is it possible that would that reduce traces of mepivacaine or other drugs. Everyone seems to be so concerned about the dosage, we tend to neglect the drugs that are not detected.

lidocaine is in the same family of drugs and would cause a positive test as well, it wouldn't be used as a masking agent.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by CSC

I got this information from from the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium.

The drug, mepivacaine, is banned on race day in every jurisdiction in the country, a so-called Class 2 drug with a high potential to enhance performance because it can deaden pain in a horse's legs. The concentration found in No End in Sight's postrace tests was powerful - 750 times higher than another recent positive for mepivacaine - and resulted in a six-month suspension for Steve Asmussen, one of the country's most prolific and successful trainers and runner-up the last two years in voting for the Eclipse Award as top trainer.

Riot is not saying that the drug can be GIVEN on race day, only that it is allowable in minute amounts in the horses system on race day.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

lidocaine is in the same family of drugs and would cause a positive test as well, it wouldn't be used as a masking agent.

Are there other masking agents that you would know of? Is it a possibilty in your opinion? We've heard about it in other sports.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

Riot is not saying that the drug can be GIVEN on race day, only that it is allowable in minute amounts in the horses system on race day.

However, again 4 prominant Trainers have had significant suspensions for using this particular drug, it seems mepivacaine is certainly not allowable when adminstered illegally.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by CSC

However, again 4 prominant Trainers have had significant suspensions for using this particular drug, it seems mepivacaine is certainly not allowable when adminstered illegally.

perhaps I missed it, I didn't see any post where someone said it is okay...it should not be given on raceday because it is a strong anesthetic that absolutlely will eliminate pain in an affected joint or foot or whatever. But like Chuck pointed out it is also a valuable diagnostic tool when trying to pinpoint lameness in an animal, and it wears off in several hours (not clears the system).

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by CSC

Are there other masking agents that you would know of? Is it a possibilty in your opinion? We've heard about it in other sports.

probably, but I just barely passed chemistry...I don't know what they are.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

probably, but I just barely passed chemistry...I don't know what they are.

I did too....barely.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

perhaps I missed it, I didn't see any post where someone said it is okay...it should not be given on raceday because it is a strong anesthetic that absolutlely will eliminate pain in an affected joint or foot or whatever. But like Chuck pointed out it is also a valuable diagnostic tool when trying to pinpoint lameness in an animal, and it wears off in several hours (not clears the system).

I guess I just don't want to subscribe to the theory that all horses are racing on hay, oats and water.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually the NY rule was changed because the rules that were in effect before were for testing procedures that were dated. The state of New York's rules are the problem in this case hence the change. No one would try to use mepivacaine as a block in a racehorse any more than you would down a 6 pack while waiting in line at a police checkpoint. The levels ARE insignifigant at a certain point. Just about anything can be found in a horses system if you test at low enough levels.

Procaine penn was a bad choice of medications and despite the vet and Pletchers assertions they should have known better. But again no one would use procaine in the manner that ypu suggest he may have. it would be like trying to sneak a rifle through airline security especially at the BC where you know that the testing is going to be very thorough.

Pletcher surely is guilty of violations of the rules but these are not smoking guns that people want them to be. Check out what happened to Noel Hickey in Chicago a few years back to really learn how people cheat.

Well, my intention in that post wasn't to assert that Pletcher definitively used local anesthetics to block horses. I was just pointing out that, regardless of it being outdated, the NY rule was in a affect and he violated it. Hence the mepivicaine level, however minute, was "significant". Not significant (perhaps) in terms of performance enhancement, but certainly significant in terms of post-race testing.

My second point was that, while a legal and therapeutic medication, local anesthetics such as mepivicaine and procaine can alter soundness dramatically in a short time frame (whether or not no one in their right mind would use them) and thus, IMO, positives of that nature are not on par with things like tranquilizers or anti-inflammatories or muscle relaxants that are more obvious management snafu's.

Just for the record, whoever I was responding to originally did bring up a good point, that there is a huge difference between a positive for a therapeutic medication and one for an altogether illegal medication. All positives are not created equal, and the public should be aware of this. At the same time, however, I don't think that all therapeutic positives are necessarily created equal, either.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Mepivacaine is allowed to be in a horses system on race day.

Yes, nanograms matter.

There are dosages at which drugs can influence or affect performance, and dosages at which that is impossible. That is the whole point.

A drug positive is an actionable offense, indeed, but not all drug positives are proof of attempting to influence a horses performance.

It's funny that you can say that its incorrect to assume that a drug positive is definitive proof that there was an attempt to affect performance, but then turn around and say that a drug found at a certain level is definitive proof that there wasn't an attempt to affect performance.

How are these threshold levels determined? Is the research conducted on racehorses? Is the treatment protocol identical to how someone would use it illegally just prior to a race? I doubt it.

Local anesthetics, as the name suggest, are deposited locally and not typically administered directly into a vein, and yet the blood is what is tested. What if I administer a less-than-recommended dose (who says those are necessarily accurate either?) in a single site 4-6 hours prior to post? Since local anesthetics last several hours, couldn't that be sufficient to enhance performance, and if so, is that enough of a time frame to allow drug to be absorbed into the blood stream such that it would test?

Maybe they should think about taking blood samples 2 or 3 days after a race, too.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by CSC

I got this information from from the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium.

The drug, mepivacaine, is banned on race day in every jurisdiction in the country, a so-called Class 2 drug with a high potential to enhance performance because it can deaden pain in a horse's legs. The concentration found in No End in Sight's postrace tests was powerful - 750 times higher than another recent positive for mepivacaine - and resulted in a six-month suspension for Steve Asmussen, one of the country's most prolific and successful trainers and runner-up the last two years in voting for the Eclipse Award as top trainer.

Great example. Let's compare Asmussen's positive for mepivicaine to Pletchers. Asmussens' has to be (based upon the above info) at least 750 nanograms per ml, but probably a bit higher. But we'll give him the minimum it could be as 750 ng/ml.

Asmussen: 750 ng/ml or higher
Pletcher: 1.6 ng/ml

The allowable level of mepivicaine in California (yes, there are allowable levels that can be found post-raceday test, and they follow what the RMTC wants) is up to 10 nanograms per ml

So again, let's look at who the "horse dopers with mepivicaine" are:

Asmussen horse: 750 ng/ml or higher
Pletcher horse: 1.6 ng/ml
Allowable level in CA and RMTC: 10 ng/ml

No way will I call Pletcher a "horse doper" with mepivicaine based upon the above facts.

As to what the trainers have to deal with - the inconsistency - until the RMTC standards are adopted nationally, look at the following examples:

Mepivicaine allowable dose may be given:
CA: 50 milligrams subcutaneously 96 hours ( 4 days) before post time
FL: 200 milligrams subcutaneously 168 hours (7 days) before post time
MD: no specified dose or route, withdrawal 5 to 7 days
KY: no specified dose or route, withdrawal 96 hours (4 days)

Am I gonna jump on a trainer for a mepivicaine positive of 1.6 ng/ml, when the RMTC allows up to 10 ng/ml to be found race day? No.

Do I think differently of Pletcher's mepivicaine positive, compared to Asmussens? Absolutely.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm curious Chuck what if a trainer is using masking agents such as 'lidocaine', is it possible that would that reduce traces of mepivacaine or other drugs. Everyone seems to be so concerned about the dosage, we tend to neglect the drugs that are not detected.

Masking agents are useless when you are testing at the nanogram and picogram levels. Not that lidocaine would be considered a masking agent. I have said a million times that 95% of the time the drugs that you hear about are not the real problem, it is the ones that there is no testing for or even an awareness level by the authorities for.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

I got this information from from the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium.

The drug, mepivacaine, is banned on race day in every jurisdiction in the country, a so-called Class 2 drug with a high potential to enhance performance because it can deaden pain in a horse's legs. The concentration found in No End in Sight's postrace tests was powerful - 750 times higher than another recent positive for mepivacaine - and resulted in a six-month suspension for Steve Asmussen, one of the country's most prolific and successful trainers and runner-up the last two years in voting for the Eclipse Award as top trainer.

In this instance the medication was used on raceday in an attempt to break the rules. Supposedly the shot was to the throat to try to get a horse with breathing problems through a race. (the horse ran up the track as the fav which is why it was tested) According to the information I received about the incident which is from an extremely reliable source, they had been getting away with this until the LA lab began a different test for the drug where before it had not been detected which is why the levels were so high.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

Are there other masking agents that you would know of? Is it a possibilty in your opinion? We've heard about it in other sports.

The difference in other sports is the allowable levels are far greater than the allowable levels in horses. A masking agent is usually used to just dilute the sample. Not to mention that there is a thousand times more research done on human testing than there is on horses. The recent NFL suspensions were for th presense of masking agents, a diuretic used for weight loss. It is debatable that it would even mask most drugs ested for.