Barbaro (the Champ)

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I just can't see how barabro would be the 3-y0 champ over Beranrdini...i just can't...it would be a political and emotion-influenced travesty IMO...

But then again, I've seen a few bad Eclipse votings...i musdt admit that the voters (and i know MANY of them) in this industry..alot of them are not half-qualified to vote.....too many people with little knowledge of this industry have votes and it is not right...i'll leave it at that...

just like when Declan's moon beat out Afleet Alex as Champ 2-yo a few years ago when never leaving Cali. or running in the BC while Alex carrered his game to all the big dances and won multiple important stakes and never dodged anyone while runnig well everytime with some bad luck when he lost.....stupdi West coast propaganda gave it to Declan's moon - who is now showing that he is a real rat while Afleet Alex was a true champion race horse....

Hello. This is my first post...so excuse me if this has already been said. Has anyone looked at the earnings as a measure of best 3 YO? There must not be a lot of gamblers on here.

Barbaro $2,203,200
Bernardini $1,610,480

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by PostCritic

Hello. This is my first post...so excuse me if this has already been said. Has anyone looked at the earnings as a measure of best 3 YO? There must not be a lot of gamblers on here.

Barbaro $2,203,200
Bernardini $1,610,480

good point. welcome aboard mate.

Originally Posted by PostCritic

Hello. This is my first post...so excuse me if this has already been said. Has anyone looked at the earnings as a measure of best 3 YO? There must not be a lot of gamblers on here.

Barbaro $2,203,200
Bernardini $1,610,480

hello to you!

yeah, i went to ntra myself yesterday and took note of $ won....

to THIS point, bernardini hasn't done anything more than what barbaro has done...it's just later in the year. also, take note that barbaro beat four times as many horses @ the 10f distance--FOUR months ago!

at this point, it's a toss-up.

bernardini must win over older, it would be the only thing that would separate him from barbaro.

also, everyone keep in mind that altho bernardinis margin was the largest since general assembly in '79, barbaro's margin of victory was the largest in 60 years.

Originally Posted by Danzig2

hello to you!

yeah, i went to ntra myself yesterday and took note of $ won....

to THIS point, bernardini hasn't done anything more than what barbaro has done...it's just later in the year. also, take note that barbaro beat four times as many horses @ the 10f distance--FOUR months ago!

at this point, it's a toss-up.

bernardini must win over older, it would be the only thing that would separate him from barbaro.

also, everyone keep in mind that altho bernardinis margin was the largest since general assembly in '79, barbaro's margin of victory was the largest in 60 years.

That's a great post, and point Danzig. If I may add, it was never my intention to say Barbaro should get the award out of any kind of sympathy vote. I'm sorry someone tried to corrupt that. But it was my intent to illustrate Barbaro STILL has done more "on track" than Bernardini to this point and it's just wrong-my opinion, I suppose-to think Bernardini deserves the award if voted on now. I don't think anyone one is disputing if Bernardini beats older horses he wouldn't get the award. In fact, if he does and they gave him HOY and Barbaro 3-y/o champ that would almost seem to be correct in many ways.

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

That's a great post, and point Danzig. If I may add, it was never my intention to say Barbaro should get the award out of any kind of sympathy vote. I'm sorry someone tried to corrupt that. But it was my intent to illustrate Barbaro STILL has done more "on track" than Bernardini to this point and it's just wrong-my opinion, I suppose-to think Bernardini deserves the award if voted on now. I don't think anyone one is disputing if Bernardini beats older horses he wouldn't get the award. In fact, if he does and they gave him HOY and Barbaro 3-y/o champ that would almost seem to be correct in many ways.

How in the world is anyone supposed to form an intelligent opinion on this topic until the season is over?

[GPK]

Originally Posted by oracle80

How in the world is anyone supposed to form an intelligent opinion on this topic until the season is over?

It's like the old Johnny Carson skit ..."Karnac" maybe it was...some people know the answers before the question is even asked.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by BellamyRd.

That's a great post, and point Danzig. If I may add, it was never my intention to say Barbaro should get the award out of any kind of sympathy vote. I'm sorry someone tried to corrupt that. But it was my intent to illustrate Barbaro STILL has done more "on track" than Bernardini to this point and it's just wrong-my opinion, I suppose-to think Bernardini deserves the award if voted on now. I don't think anyone one is disputing if Bernardini beats older horses he wouldn't get the award. In fact, if he does and they gave him HOY and Barbaro 3-y/o champ that would almost seem to be correct in many ways.

This is CLASSIC. U honestly think it would make sense for a horse to be the HOY but not even the champion of his own division? What's next? Maybe we should take the next guy that loses a race for city mayor and install him as the president of the United States. Come on now. If u are the best horse in the country, by default u have to be the best in your division.

What I don't get is why Bernardini HAS to not only face but also BEAT older horses in order to be deserving.......but Barbaro didn't even have to face older. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This is CLASSIC. U honestly think it would make sense for a horse to be the HOY but not even the champion of his own division? What's next? Maybe we should take the next guy that loses a race for city mayor and install him as the president of the United States. Come on now. If u are the best horse in the country, by default u have to be the best in your division.

What I don't get is why Bernardini HAS to not only face but also BEAT older horses in order to be deserving.......but Barbaro didn't even have to face older. Doesn't make sense to me.

If Bernardini is going to be HOY, he better damn well beat older horses. I would expect the same for Barbaro, although IMO, Barbaro was the better horse of the two. Barbaro didn't have the chance to face older, but IMO Bernardini is the 2nd best out of this year's crop of 3 year olds. And if he is so spectacular, why did he skip the Belmont?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

If Bernardini is going to be HOY, he better damn well beat older horses. I would expect the same for Barbaro, although IMO, Barbaro was the better horse of the two. Barbaro didn't have the chance to face older, but IMO Bernardini is the 2nd best out of this year's crop of 3 year olds. And if he is so spectacular, why did he skip the Belmont?

That's not the point here. If your criteria for a 3yo being named HOY is that he has to beat older horses, that's fine. But don't say that Bernardini HAS to do it but excuse Barbaro from having to do it. There is nothing that says for sure that Barbaro would have done it so he shouldn't be excused. The point was that it's ridiculous to say that a horse can be the best horse in the country (HOY) but not even win the championship as the best horse in his own division.

As for the Belmont, why run in it? It's a worthless race unless a horse is going for the TC. It proves NOTHING. It's not like back in the older days when the Belmont was a chance to see which of the 3yo's could handle the 12f distance and would be able to compete with the older horses in the fall championship races, which were at 12f and further. Nowdays, this is the only 12f dirt stakes race in the country, at least the only grade one. So it's basically been turned into something totally irrelevant. Unless there is a TC on the line. I know that if I owned a horse that ran in the Derby and didn't win, there is not a chance in hell that he'd come anywhere close to the starting gate for either the Preakness or the Belmont. There are too many other races out there for as much money or nearly as much and I'd rather go in races that are at more manageable distances instead of the Belmont. Also, look at some of the Belmont horses over the past 10 years:

2006-Jazil.....might be done for the year
2005-Afleet Alex never raced again; Giacomo didn't race again that year
2004-Birdstone, two more career races; Smarty never raced again
2003-Funny Cide.....still around (gelding); Empire Maker one more race
2002-War Emblem......few more races after the Belmont
2001-Point Given......two more career races
1999-Charismatic.......never raced again
1998-Real Quiet........didn't race again that year
1997-Silver Charm......didn't race again that year (well, the Malibu on 12/26)

Is this a race that u would want to run in?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

That's not the point here. If your criteria for a 3yo being named HOY is that he has to beat older horses, that's fine. But don't say that Bernardini HAS to do it but excuse Barbaro from having to do it. There is nothing that says for sure that Barbaro would have done it so he shouldn't be excused. The point was that it's ridiculous to say that a horse can be the best horse in the country (HOY) but not even win the championship as the best horse in his own division.

As for the Belmont, why run in it? It's a worthless race unless a horse is going for the TC. It proves NOTHING. It's not like back in the older days when the Belmont was a chance to see which of the 3yo's could handle the 12f distance and would be able to compete with the older horses in the fall championship races, which were at 12f and further. Nowdays, this is the only 12f dirt stakes race in the country, at least the only grade one. So it's basically been turned into something totally irrelevant. Unless there is a TC on the line. I know that if I owned a horse that ran in the Derby and didn't win, there is not a chance in hell that he'd come anywhere close to the starting gate for either the Preakness or the Belmont. There are too many other races out there for as much money or nearly as much and I'd rather go in races that are at more manageable distances instead of the Belmont. Also, look at some of the Belmont horses over the past 10 years:

2006-Jazil.....might be done for the year
2005-Afleet Alex never raced again; Giacomo didn't race again that year
2004-Birdstone, two more career races; Smarty never raced again
2003-Funny Cide.....still around (gelding); Empire Maker one more race
2002-War Emblem......few more races after the Belmont
2001-Point Given......two more career races
1999-Charismatic.......never raced again
1998-Real Quiet........didn't race again that year
1997-Silver Charm......didn't race again that year (well, the Malibu on 12/26)

Is this a race that u would want to run in?

Actually, yes. It would mean that my horse had that one more G1 under his belt IF Bernardini could have gotten the distance (which I doubt he could have.) In fact, has Bernardini ever even been a mile and a quarter?

And a horse doesn't always win his division and the HOY. That's just the way it works... I don't do the decision making on that one, but I think that as it stands right now, Barbaro deserves the 3 year old division. Bernardini puts on one hell of a show, but until he beats some quality horses (older or not), I won't be jumping on that bandwagon.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

This is CLASSIC. U honestly think it would make sense for a horse to be the HOY but not even the champion of his own division? What's next? Maybe we should take the next guy that loses a race for city mayor and install him as the president of the United States. Come on now. If u are the best horse in the country, by default u have to be the best in your division.

What I don't get is why Bernardini HAS to not only face but also BEAT older horses in order to be deserving.......but Barbaro didn't even have to face older. Doesn't make sense to me.

no....bernardini is the only one who can set himself apart, and above by beating older...obviously barbaro can't do that....bernardini beating the same colts that barbaro beat does not prove he's the better horse. doing so would only show that he is equal to him...

barbaro did his racing in the first half. bernardini in the last--so later is 'better'???? why should the latter half carry more weight than the former?

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by Danzig2

no....bernardini is the only one who can set himself apart, and above by beating older...obviously barbaro can't do that....bernardini beating the same colts that barbaro beat does not prove he's the better horse. doing so would only show that he is equal to him...

barbaro did his racing in the first half. bernardini in the last--so later is 'better'???? why should the latter half carry more weight than the former?

9 times out of 10 the "latter" is going to get the award. Not right, but that is how it is.

not so buffy...just off the top of my head.
afleet alex
smarty jones
charismatic

all three done before the year was half over....

i can find more...but i'm supposed to be WORKING....LOL

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by Danzig2

hello to you!

yeah, i went to ntra myself yesterday and took note of $ won....

to THIS point, bernardini hasn't done anything more than what barbaro has done...it's just later in the year. also, take note that barbaro beat four times as many horses @ the 10f distance--FOUR months ago!

at this point, it's a toss-up.

bernardini must win over older, it would be the only thing that would separate him from barbaro.

also, everyone keep in mind that altho bernardinis margin was the largest since general assembly in '79, barbaro's margin of victory was the largest in 60 years.

$$$ won shouldn't have the impact it once did with the inflated purses abound. Otherwise, you could just insert the Dubai and Breeders Cup winners as HOY.

Originally Posted by PostCritic

Hello. This is my first post...so excuse me if this has already been said. Has anyone looked at the earnings as a measure of best 3 YO? There must not be a lot of gamblers on here.

Barbaro $2,203,200
Bernardini $1,610,480

I'm willing to accept this as the measurement used to determine 3YO champ.

At the end of the year.

[Danzig]

a glance at my side by side comparison shows that they are relatively even....

so something must break the tie. at this point, what would that tiebreaker be??? one word.



kentucky

that not enough??

how about four times as many words.
first saturday in may.

they both have four graded wins, both with two grade ones. but the ky derby is THE race that all three year olds aspire to....and one won, the other wasn't even there. he was waiting to play spoiler in md. and in past years, that has earned scorn from those on here...., rested and fresh, waiting in the wings to take on the derby winner.

ah, but it doesn't matter. bernardini is the next superhorse. a chip off the old block, he's gonna beat all comers in the bcc. just like we read flower alley was going to do last year. and mdo before that.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

a glance at my side by side comparison shows that they are relatively even....

so something must break the tie. at this point, what would that tiebreaker be??? one word.



kentucky

that not enough??

how about four times as many words.
first saturday in may.

they both have four graded wins, both with two grade ones. but the ky derby is THE race that all three year olds aspire to....and one won, the other wasn't even there. he was waiting to play spoiler in md. and in past years, that has earned scorn from those on here...., rested and fresh, waiting in the wings to take on the derby winner.

ah, but it doesn't matter. bernardini is the next superhorse. a chip off the old block, he's gonna beat all comers in the bcc. just like we read flower alley was going to do last year. and mdo before that.

They are at a tie right now...that was my whole point. I was just stating that some of the arguements, both PRO-BARBARO and PRO-BERNARDINI, were completely biased just as this post of yours is. The tie will be broken when and if Bernardini wins the JCGC and the BCC, either way. I really don't care who gets the Eclipse award anyway. My speculation is just that it will be given to Bernardini based on Bernardini's recent amazing display of raw talent and his improvement with every race plus the fact that he is being perfectly managed.

Why is the bringing up of Flower Alley even relevant? Bernardini and Flower Alley are two very different horses. I was on St. Liam's bandwagon. Most knew that St. Liam was going to win the BCC. That is why St. Liam was the favorite at post time. Flower Alley was a very good horse, but he was nowhere near the horse Bernardini was at this stage of the game last year. Every knowledgeable horse fan/player will concede that. Besides, Flower Alley finished 3/4ths of a length behind a horse that actually sniffed GZ's a s s which is saying something being that Flower Alley was only a three year old.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay

They are at a tie right now...that was my whole point. I was just stating that some of the arguements, both PRO-BARBARO and PRO-BERNARDINI, were completely biased just as this post of yours is. The tie will be broken when and if Bernardini wins the JCGC and the BCC, either way. I really don't care who gets the Eclipse award anyway. My speculation is just that it will be given to Bernardini based on Bernardini's recent amazing display of raw talent and his improvement with every race plus the fact that he is being perfectly managed.

Why is the bringing up of Flower Alley even relevant? Bernardini and Flower Alley are two very different horses. I was on St. Liam's bandwagon. Most knew that St. Liam was going to win the BCC. That is why St. Liam was the favorite at post time. Flower Alley was a very good horse, but he was nowhere near the horse Bernardini was at this stage of the game last year. Every knowledgeable horse fan/player will concede that. Besides, Flower Alley finished 3/4ths of a length behind a horse that actually sniffed GZ's a s s which is saying something being that Flower Alley was only a three year old.

why is it relevant??? oh boy....because for every bernardini, we have twenty flower alleys. or more. because i'm a realist. because it seems every year we hear that a three year old is the next coming, he can walk on water. last year it was flower alley. that's why. bernardini might be ap indy redux. or he might be another flower alley, fupeg, war emblem, etc, etc....but the fun is in the finding out.

and nice jab about 'knowledgeable horse fan/player.....'

[Danzig]

no, he's not a bad horse. and i certainly know that horses can run a clunker now and then. i hope he comes back well out of it. but coming in second isn't winning for fun, by open lengths, etc....those phrases get tossed out so often when a three year old lights up these boards.

but i've been watching horse racing now for a long, long time, and i know how hard it is for a good three year old to win against older..let alone in a race like the bcc. yeah, flower finished second. good run by him esp considering his gold cup run.

BUT, as i said elsewhere....secretariat, good as he was, and man was he good, won ONCE in three starts against older. it is not that easy, that is the 'realism' in me coming out.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're right, it's not easy. Don't think anyone said it would be. This is sort of going around in circles. We'll know more Oct. 7th.

lol

hell dahoss, i said two (or was it three?) pages ago that this thread was like a dog chasing it's tail. not going anywhere, but a lot of energy exerted.

thanks for the lively discussion!!

i gotta say, this year has been amazing, and it ain't over yet! there have been some bad, bad things to happen this year...but i think i'm more enthused about every race to come than in some years past.