Worth a Thought?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But I just thought it was interesting that Einstein wouldn't even get a mention. Maybe he shouldn't but I think he should.

Is it possible you over think things?

[cakes44]

Maybe if he ran one step in the Arlington Million. However, he did not.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Maybe if he ran one step in the Arlington Million. However, he did not.

But Big Brown can be considered even though he ran worse in the Belmont? Interesting.

[Indian Charlie]

Uh, yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

BB and Einstein had remarkably similar years!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But Big Brown can be considered even though he ran worse in the Belmont? Interesting.

I think that it was more like that was the type of race that he needed to win in order for this conversation to be even slightly legitimate.

Beating some turfers (and "look, he beat Thorn Song" probably isn't the best place to start when trying to make a case for HOY) and Commentator while failing to win even a single big name race all year doesn't hold a candle to a horse who wins the Derby and Preakness the way Big Brown did -- or the accomplishment of winning the Dubai World Cup and Jockey Club Gold Cup while running second to a BC Turf champion in his first start on the green stuff in the Man O War and then beating home more than a couple Grade I winners in the BC Classic on a surface which was a question mark for him, but the surface over which some of those Grade I winners were already proven commodities.

Yes, he's underappreciated, but this is apples to oranges.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that it was more like that was the type of race that he needed to win in order for this conversation to be even slightly legitimate.

Beating some turfers (and "look, he beat Thorn Song" probably isn't the best place to start when trying to make a case for HOY) and Commentator while failing to win even a single big name race all year doesn't hold a candle to a horse who wins the Derby and Preakness the way Big Brown did -- or the accomplishment of winning the Dubai World Cup and Jockey Club Gold Cup while running second to a BC Turf champion in his first start on the green stuff in the Man O War and then beating home more than a couple Grade I winners in the BC Classic on a surface which was a question mark for him, but the surface over which some of those Grade I winners were already proven commodities.

Yes, he's underappreciated, but this is apples to oranges.

So beating grade one horses in grade one races means nothing because the names of the races weren't the Derby, Preakness, Dubai World Cup, and JCGC? First, I thought more people mastered reading comprehension than this. Obviously, I was wrong. I am NOT trying to make the case the Einstein should be HOY. I wouldn't even vote for him myself. Second, let's not be silly here. The names on the races don't mean squat. It's the quality of the competition. Curlin beating up on Asiatic Boy, Past the Point, Wanderin Boy, Well Armed, and Merchant Marine was not more impressive than the horses that Einstein beat. Big Brown beating on Macho Again, Ichabad Crane, Eight Belles, and Denis of Cork was not more impressive than the horses the Einstein beat. Let's be real. Sure, we all can bemoan the state of racing these days and know that a grade one in 2008 is not the same as a grade one used to be in 1988. But that still doesn't change the fact that in any given year, some horses will rise above other horses. Those horses will be the grade one horses. The horses Einstein beat were grade one horses. The horses those others beat barely qualify as more than allowance horses. Who cares about the name of the races?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Well Armed?

2nd San Pasqual G2 to Zappa, defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Arson Squad (Meadowlands Cup G2), Molengoa (Mervyn LeRoy G2)

1st San Antonio G2 defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Awesome Gem (3rd BC Classic G1), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al), Big Booster (San Juan Capistrano G2 et al), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1)

3rd Dubai World Cup G1 to Curlin, Asiatic Boy defeating A.P. Arrow (Clark G1)

1st San Diego G2 defeating Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al.), Rebellion (Commonwealth G2 et al), Global Hunter

2nd Pacific Classic G1 to Go Between, defeating Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1), Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al), Delosvientos (Brooklyn G2 et al), Awesome Gem, Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

1st Goodwood G1 defeating Tiago (Oaklawn G2), Albertus Maximus (BC Dirt Mile et al), Surf Cat (Mervyn LeRoy G2 et al), Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Spirit One (Arlington Million G1T), Tres Barrachos (Swaps G2), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

2nd San Pasqual G2 to Zappa, defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Arson Squad (Meadowlands Cup G2), Molengoa (Mervyn LeRoy G2)

1st San Antonio G2 defeating Heatseeker (Santa Anita G1 et al), Awesome Gem (3rd BC Classic G1), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al), Big Booster (San Juan Capistrano G2 et al), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1)

3rd Dubai World Cup G1 to Curlin, Asiatic Boy defeating A.P. Arrow (Clark G1)

1st San Diego G2 defeating Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al.), Rebellion (Commonwealth G2 et al), Global Hunter

2nd Pacific Classic G1 to Go Between, defeating Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Student Council (Pimlico Special G1), Surf Cat (San Carlos G2 et al), Delosvientos (Brooklyn G2 et al), Awesome Gem, Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

1st Goodwood G1 defeating Tiago (Oaklawn G2), Albertus Maximus (BC Dirt Mile et al), Surf Cat (Mervyn LeRoy G2 et al), Mast Track (Hollywood Gold Cup G1), Spirit One (Arlington Million G1T), Tres Barrachos (Swaps G2), Zappa (San Pasqual G2 et al)

Synthetic results can be used to enhance a horse's record if a horse has a good dirt or grass record. When they are the ONLY surface a horse has enjoyed success on, they are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The names on the races don't mean squat.

Really?

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Who cares about the name of the races?

Which is why you see owners all clamoring just as badly to win a high-end money allowance that looks more like a Grade II as they do to win the Kentucky Derby.

Or why people would rather win the Dubai World Cup than the Clark Handicap.

Or why people would rather win the Jockey Club Gold Cup than the Gulfstream Park Handicap.

So, to answer your question more succinctly -- um, everyone.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Who cares about the name of the races?

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So a couple of inches the other way and he's a Travers winner and fits in the Clark

Nothing if inconsistent.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Really?



Which is why you see owners all clamoring just as badly to win a high-end money allowance that looks more like a Grade II as they do to win the Kentucky Derby.

Or why people would rather win the Dubai World Cup than the Clark Handicap.

Or why people would rather win the Jockey Club Gold Cup than the Gulfstream Park Handicap.

So, to answer your question more succinctly -- um, everyone.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Really?



Which is why you see owners all clamoring just as badly to win a high-end money allowance that looks more like a Grade II as they do to win the Kentucky Derby.

Or why people would rather win the Dubai World Cup than the Clark Handicap.

Or why people would rather win the Jockey Club Gold Cup than the Gulfstream Park Handicap.

So, to answer your question more succinctly -- um, everyone.

In general, you are correct. On a regular basis, the races you named are going to be big races. They will attract the best fields and be highly coveted prizes. But it won't always be the case where those races will turn out to be the BEST races and 2008 is a prime example of that. Was the 2003 JCGC where Mineshaft beat Quest and Evening Attire a better race than the Kentucky Cup Classic where Perfect Drift beat Congaree? No. It happens sometimes. I remember back in 1988, a friend of mine and I happened to be at Hollywood Park during the middle of the week. They were running a first level allowance race on the card for 2yo's. The 1-2 finishers in that race were Houston and Sunday Silence. That was actually the best 2yo race I saw that year.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

But Big Brown can be considered even though he ran worse in the Belmont? Interesting.

I don't think Big Brown ran 6th in this year's awful rendition of the Donn either.