Vineyard Haven Sold...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Sure, I never said they haven't. But what does that have to do with my question?

Well, I took your question to suggest that it was ridiculous to prep a horse in the US with an eye towards a race in Europe.

In the same vein, it sounds just as ridiculous to prep a horse in Dubai with an eye towards a race in Europe, yet it seems to work well for them.

My point was that both situations don't really have anything to do with prepping a horse in Dubai with an eye towards the Derby.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not exactly. What I was trying to say, and i apologize if it wasn't clear, is if you are already in Europe, it's silly to come to America to prep for a race that is in Europe. Just like I think it's ridiculous to take a horse that is here, and bring them to Dubai to prep for a race here. Make more sense?

That makes plenty of sense. But that's more a situation like the one in 2003 when Outta Here, an American-trained and raced horse, prepped for the Kentucky Derby by shipping to run in the UAE Derby.

What's not being mentioned is that the entire Godolphin band of horses, 3yos and older, are sent to Dubai. Winter in Dubai is the game plan for all their horses, not just 3yos targeting the Kentucky Derby. Its analagous (on a much larger scale) to old-time stables like Rokeby wintering their horses in Aiken, or WH Perry or Phipps stables sending horses to Santa Anita for the winter. They're there for several months.

In and of itself, I don't think this "regrouping" method is a bad idea. Where probably most of the problem lies, as opposed to the switch in locale--though obviously the long ship can easily knock out some horses--, is the switch in training/management (which is the plight of nearly all their 2yos). Not that the Suroor guy sucks, it just seems to be an untimely point in their careers to changing up the training program on developing horses. Its almost like the horses, being in new hands, have to start from scratch (this is what allegedly happened to Ruler's Court). It would be interesting to see how things would have played out if Eoin Harty and David Loder stayed on as head trainers for their strings while in Dubai.

Most of the failures of Godolphin to win the Kentucky Derby has been because they haven't shown up for the race, not because their horses have run like sh!t in it. In fact, the few horses they have started have given fairly decent accounts of themselves (Worldly Manner, China Visit, Express Tour). In addition, perhaps their two classiest candidates, Street Cry and Aljabr, were injured just days before the Derby.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

That makes plenty of sense. But that's more a situation like the one in 2003 when Outta Here, an American-trained and raced horse, prepped for the Kentucky Derby by shipping to run in the UAE Derby.

What's not being mentioned is that the entire Godolphin band of horses, 3yos and older, are sent to Dubai. Winter in Dubai is the game plan for all their horses, not just 3yos targeting the Kentucky Derby. Its analagous (on a much larger scale) to old-time stables like Rokeby wintering their horses in Aiken, or WH Perry or Phipps stables sending horses to Santa Anita for the winter. They're there for several months.

In and of itself, I don't think this "regrouping" method is a bad idea. Where probably most of the problem lies, as opposed to the switch in locale--though obviously the long ship can easily knock out some horses--, is the switch in training/management (which is the plight of nearly all their 2yos). Not that the Suroor guy sucks, it just seems to be an untimely point in their careers to changing up the training program on developing horses. Its almost like the horses, being in new hands, have to start from scratch (this is what allegedly happened to Ruler's Court). It would be interesting to see how things would have played out if Eoin Harty and David Loder stayed on as head trainers for their strings while in Dubai.

Most of the failures of Godolphin to win the Kentucky Derby has been because they haven't shown up for the race, not because their horses have run like sh!t in it. In fact, the few horses they have started have given fairly decent accounts of themselves (Worldly Manner, China Visit, Express Tour). In addition, perhaps their two classiest candidates, Street Cry and Aljabr, were injured just days before the Derby.

a few hour trip to aiken is not comparable to quarantine and then a flight to dubai-the flight alone to dubai is far longer than a drive from new york to aiken.
and then they have to do it again in a few months. i just think it's too much stress on a horse, and that it's unnecessary. it takes only a few hours to fly from new york to cali, but how often do you see it attempted? not very-most horses and trainers stay at their base, or within a few hours drive. also, i've read that many trainers either ship in immediately before the race, or two weeks ahead, as many horses come down with something after a few days of shipping-and often that was just a van ride. so, think about quarantine, and then the van ride to the airport, hours upon hours on a plane, and then another ride, etc--and multiply that times two for those going over, and then coming back.

besides, we all know that the derby is a tough customer-and many say it's not the time to try anything new, and you need great luck. so why compound the difficulties with unnecessary travel, especially with younger horses?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

besides, we all know that the derby is a tough customer-and many say it's not the time to try anything new, and you need great luck. so why compound the difficulties with unnecessary travel, especially with younger horses?

Simply put, the travel is necessary because that's where they winter their horses. The Derby is just one of the goals of the operation. Does that mean they should disrupt their whole setup just because its not an ideal arrangement for one specific race? Apparently not. Particularly when they don't necessarily produce a viable contender every year (and haven't now for some time) to begin with.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Simply put, the travel is necessary because that's where they winter their horses. The Derby is just one of the goals of the operation. Does that mean they should disrupt their whole setup just because its not an ideal arrangement for one specific race? Apparently not. Particularly when they don't necessarily produce a viable contender every year (and haven't now for some time) to begin with.

This is a good point, however, I guess my question is -- is it that simple? The Derby is a big goal of theirs. If this is "where they winter their horses" so to speak, then doesn't that become the route or "plan" to get to the Derby (which is just one of the goals, although it seems to be a big goal)? Sure it is -- they want to do it their way. They are using their wintering of their horses as their plan to get to the goal -- the Derby. What I mean is that perhaps the "plan" to get to the "goal" should be strategic and feasible. Maybe it should be reassessed. Would an alternative plan "disrupt" their whole setup being that there is a goal in mind? I don't mean to go in circles here, but I guess it comes down to a few simple items.

First, I want to do it my way. Second, my goal is that I want to win the Derby. If my way isn't working, I either change my way or change my goal. Sure, it's oversimplified. But they stable horses all over the world. I don't know if it's a disruption as much as it's more efficient planning.

Thanks.

Eric

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Simply put, the travel is necessary because that's where they winter their horses. The Derby is just one of the goals of the operation. Does that mean they should disrupt their whole setup just because its not an ideal arrangement for one specific race? Apparently not. Particularly when they don't necessarily produce a viable contender every year (and haven't now for some time) to begin with.

but surely they could winter their american contingent somewhere a bit closer? not like the guy can't afford to buy yet another farm. and many of theirs run here all year long, so it's not like they target just the derby and head back. also, like i said before, they need to do what's best for their horses-ignoring what a horse is telling you is not the way to winning races. if they're going to run horses here, i would assume after their years of struggling, that maybe it's time for a change in tactics.

[my miss storm cat]

I thought this was interesting... figured I'd post it for his fans (assuming he still has fans, of course).

"Vineyard Haven did not do well when he got to Dubai. We made a mistake in running him at the Dubai International Racing Carnival and now we are just giving him the time to do better in himself. When he gets back to America, he will step up a gear."

http://www.godolphin.com/NewsArticle.aspx?id=4326

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I thought this was interesting... figured I'd post it for his fans (assuming he still has fans, of course).

"Vineyard Haven did not do well when he got to Dubai. We made a mistake in running him at the Dubai International Racing Carnival and now we are just giving him the time to do better in himself. When he gets back to America, he will step up a gear."

"F the desert, and these people in sheets. I used to get some bagel(now nothing.")-V.H.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I don't know what was more of a shock today. A John Ward horse getting injured, or a nice 2 year old that was bought up, shipped to Dubai and he didn't do well afterwards.

Well said. I can't imagine what kind of stuff Ward has on Oxley because I wouldn't have put up with his shi.t even if were lifelong friends. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

NT

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I don't know what was more of a shock today. A John Ward horse getting injured, or a nice 2 year old that was bought up, shipped to Dubai and he didn't do well afterwards.

The haters seem to think our friends in royal blue (applause!) don't admit mistakes. That was part of the reason I posted it.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I agree with a good portion of this. Especially the trainer stuff. But I do think the major problem is shipping to Dubai. In this day and age I think it's asking a lot of a horse to overcome all of that. But, hey it's their money.

Yep. It'd be better though--if they're intent on doing it their way--to do it with the horses they developed from the get-go, not top 2yos that they cherry-picked (or ones they happened to have handed to them-- in the case of Midshipman) at the end of the year.