Vineyard Haven Sold...

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What does someone's political views have to do with this argument?

You made the senseless comments....but I am negative.....and we are a tough crowd? How about taking a little responsibility for your own comments instead of trying to blame others for pointing out the ridiculousness of what you posted.

Yeah, Blackthroated, why do you have to always be so negative?

[King Glorious]

In all seriousness, how long have they been at it? I know before Street Sense, we heard all the time about a supposed "Juvenile Jinx". We also heard all about how a horse with only two starts at three couldn't win it. Now, we've had two in a row. How many years and how many starters did it take for Wayne Lukas before he finally won one? Just because something hasn't happened YET doesn't mean that it can't happen.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In all seriousness, how long have they been at it? I know before Street Sense, we heard all the time about a supposed "Juvenile Jinx". We also heard all about how a horse with only two starts at three couldn't win it. Now, we've had two in a row. How many years and how many starters did it take for Wayne Lukas before he finally won one? Just because something hasn't happened YET doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Here is the utter fallacy of your argument, since you either don't know it, or choose to ignore it. They have failed MISERABLY with their current plan. One horse after another disappears once sent to Dubai, and when they occasionally do reappear, they fail more often than not. And, not only that, they have shown unbelievably poor judgement in their purchases. Yes, occasionally they are successful, but when you throw money around the way they do, something has to stick. The bottom line is that their ROI is miserable.

Take a look at the pps for the 6th at Aqueduct on Wednesday. Or, look at the 5th from Aqueduct today....or the 3rd from last Wednesday. The cards at Aqueduct, virtually every Fall, are littered with their mistakes. And, do you think when they purchase these horses they are pointing for November in Ozone Park?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Here is the utter fallacy of your argument, since you either don't know it, or choose to ignore it. They have failed MISERABLY with their current plan. One horse after another disappears once sent to Dubai, and when they occasionally do reappear, they fail more often than not. And, not only that, they have shown unbelievably poor judgement in their purchases. Yes, occasionally they are successful, but when you throw money around the way they do, something has to stick. The bottom line is that their ROI is miserable.

Take a look at the pps for the 6th at Aqueduct on Wednesday. Or, look at the 5th from Aqueduct today....or the 3rd from last Wednesday. The cards at Aqueduct, virtually every Fall, are littered with their mistakes. And, do you think when they purchase these horses they are pointing for November in Ozone Park?

I do not deny at all that they have failed with their current plan. I don't deny that they have shown poor judgement with their purchases. I think this purchase of Vineyard Haven is one of them. It's just my belief that the main reason for failure is not the plan itself but the horses that they chose to use to implement the plan. No doubt that many of the horses disappear once they are sent over there. I wonder if sometimes, the expectations placed on these horses by the public is not higher than it should be because of the ridiculous prices paid for them? What is it that makes them failures? Would they still be considered the same failures as horses if they cost $1k each instead of what they actually cost? That's my position. The purchase prices don't have any part in why I feel the way they feel. I don't feel like they've had many legitimate contenders or horses that failed to live up to their realistic expectations, not the expectations that were unfairly raised because of how much they cost. I also think that a lot of people fail to look at how much they pay relative to how much they have. The amounts may seem outrageous to us but that's because they live in a realm that is like a fantasy land to us. That doesn't mean that they don't waste a lot of money because they do. But for them, it's not a lot and it's probably very little in relation to how they'll feel if they win the race. Again, though, I don't deny that they have failed with their plan. Only, I look at is as they've failed SO FAR. I don't see it as a plan that can never work as some do.

[Linny]

Between what they've bought and what they've bred they have had alot of opportunity. If most any typical US-based operation had the horses and the financial wherewithall that Godolphin has, they would have at least gotten close, via good management.
I agree that at first they were buying all wrong. I mean...Comeonmom?? Remember too that they are also breeding alot of horses with exceptional pedigrees and yet I don't think a single homebred has even run in the Derby. The closest they got to a Derby was when Bernardini won the Preakness. Had he been 3 or 4 weeks further along that winter, he might have won them a Derby. He was based in the US and thus far there is no indication that a Dubai regimen works.
They took a dirt bred horse like Jalil and sent him to England. He was useless until he got his feet onto the dirt in Dubai. Then he came here and was handled easily at Suffolk Downs. That's progress. Has he run since?
I just think that they have too many horses to manage them all in the best way. This is not to say that they are ill cared for but they don't seem to spot them very well. Rick Mettee does a great job with what he gets but after training for 4 or 5 months in Dubai, by the time they get back to him...

King Glorious, it's not about how much they spend, we all know that they can outspend anyone. It's about how little they get back. If any wealthy business person went into the racing business and spent like Sheik Mo has and got his results, they'd have been out years ago. It's not viable. If they were buying $1k horses and getting these results, I'll say they were geniuses. If they pay $5m for a colt worth $1m, they still bought a million dollar colt that's a likely flop.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I do not deny at all that they have failed with their current plan. I don't deny that they have shown poor judgement with their purchases. I think this purchase of Vineyard Haven is one of them. It's just my belief that the main reason for failure is not the plan itself but the horses that they chose to use to implement the plan.

What, you mean horses like Secretariat and Slew?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

What, you mean horses like Secretariat and Slew?

Huh?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Huh?

Sorry, I'm on a laptop and I get lazy typing on these things.

What I meant was in response to you saying they had used the wrong types of horses for their great plans to conquer the derby.

When I said Secretariat and Slew, that was meant to ask if those were the right kinds of horses they need for their plan. You know, the immortal great kinds.