Vineyard Haven Sold...

King Glorious · #1 11-02-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Seriously? I mean, every sentence you wrote, seriously?

Yes. Aside from Ruler's Court, who was injured, I never thought any of the horses they bought and took over there or any of the horses they have brought back over for the race were legit threats. I think this is the first real one. And yes, I'm seriously rooting for them to get one.

King Glorious · #2 11-02-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You failed to answer the part of your post I disagreed with the most. You don't think wintering in Dubai is a disadvantage for a horse trying to win the Kentucky Derby? How many more once promising horses need to be sent there, only to come back a fraction of what the once were, if they even come back to race at all? Do you think all of this is a coincidence?

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

Bobby Fischer · #3 11-02-2008, 03:51 AM

his left front leg looks like trash. This horse is not a derby contender.

Round Pen · #4 11-02-2008, 07:51 AM

Maybe Joe Torre Can use his share of the money to Help sign Manny again

Scav · #5 11-02-2008, 08:47 AM

They also just bought Jose Adan from Catalano and family.

Handicappy · #6 11-02-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

You haven't followed all the horses they have had.

Handicappy · #7 11-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

Forget just the 2 year olds that you know about, although I am sure there are many you don't know about. There have seldom been horses that they have gotten that have moved forward after going to them. Discreet Cat came back to the US an absolute mess and not due to injuries. He was light and they didn't even work him for about 2 months once he came back. Henny Hughes was the same. No injuries mind you. They just didn't know what to do with them. Please, at least do some research on the trainer if you are going to be an avowed fan.

King Glorious · #8 11-02-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Forget just the 2 year olds that you know about, although I am sure there are many you don't know about. There have seldom been horses that they have gotten that have moved forward after going to them. Discreet Cat came back to the US an absolute mess and not due to injuries. He was light and they didn't even work him for about 2 months once he came back. Henny Hughes was the same. No injuries mind you. They just didn't know what to do with them. Please, at least do some research on the trainer if you are going to be an avowed fan.

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

Handicappy · #9 11-02-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

Please study this a bit. Henny Hughes came back very strong..... but was given to Kiaran McLaughlin in February or March of '06. Kiaran then worked the horse up to the Jersey race and had him until his retirement. He did nothing while with Godolphin. Check it out. If you wanna be a supporter, at least know what you are supporting.

blackthroatedwind · #10 11-02-2008, 10:26 PM

It will be a long time, if ever, before they get a horse as good as Street Cry. He was sent to Dubai.....and made his 3YO debut in the Discovery.....yeah, you got it, it was at their favorite track and during their favorite time of the year.....Aqueduct in the Fall.

Oh, yeah.....he lost.

King Glorious · #11 11-02-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It will be a long time, if ever, before they get a horse as good as Street Cry. He was sent to Dubai.....and made his 3YO debut in the Discovery.....yeah, you got it, it was at their favorite track and during their favorite time of the year.....Aqueduct in the Fall.

Oh, yeah.....he lost.

I don't think Street Cry was as good as you do.

Handicappy · #12 11-02-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Henny Hughes returned and won a gr three race in NJ before winning the gr one King's Bishop and the gr one Vosburgh over older horses. Discreet Cat came back and won the gr two Jerome then beat older in the gr one Cigar Mile, nearly setting a track and world record in the process. Please, at least present better examples of failures if you are going to tell me where my opinion is wrong.

Henny Hughes never had a shot in hell to win the Derby. What he did have a chance to be was the best 3yo sprinter in the country, if not the best sprinter period and it's arguable that he still turned out to be both. Discreet Cat probably wasn't getting 10f on his best days either so to classify them both as failures because they didn't come back here and win the Derby is a bit silly to me.

Maybe the analogy to Pletcher or Frankel is silly. But the point is that even doing things the conventional way is not a guarantee to success. I don't think it's fair to say that the way the Dubai people do it is the reason why their horses haven't won when it's plenty of other people that don't do it their way and they haven't won either.

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

Cajungator26 · #13 11-02-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handicappy

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

AMEN to that one.

outofthebox · #14 11-02-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handicappy

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

Cajungator26 · #15 11-02-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

I'm almost positive he was at one point a Darley member, but I could be wrong. When he came back to the states, he was owned by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum. I agree with you on the bad start stopping him from winning ... that was terrible. Horse had no chance after that.

outofthebox · #16 11-02-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

Ok i was wrong about being a Darley runner, ran in the BC Juvenile at 2. When he did return he ran for Zabeel racing.

Handicappy · #17 11-02-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

Darley (Shiek Mo's minor league stable to Godolphin) and Zabeel which is owned by Sheik Mo's son. He did have ill effects as it took him about 7/8 months of training before he could get back racing. Which he did in early July at Monmouth. No injuries at all. He always broke a half step slow and got banged around so much he lost all chance. You can't break like that, against those guys and have a shot.

blackthroatedwind · #18 11-02-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

Well, that kind of idiocy really gives you credibility.

Handicappy · #19 11-02-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, that kind of idiocy really gives you credibility.

Idiocy? Does your response mean that you agree with the other two paragraphs I wrote? Or just picking off what you can to negate me. I'm not looking for credibility. But do you always have to be so negative? I was making a point. That's all.

Handicappy · #20 11-02-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You had me up to the point where henny Hughes was a Derby contender and your ridiculous last sentence. Henny was a big talent, but he had distance limitations I think. Kiaran must have also. Remember his second in the Juvenile was around one turn.

You are right about his distance limits. I was only speaking about how difficult it is to predict how a 2 yr old will perform at 3. But you are right. And I don't think we need a political dialogue. I was only trying to have a little fun. MaN, you guys are a tough crowd. But if I had you that far, I am pleased. I don't put myself out there as an expret