Vineyard Haven Sold...

King Glorious · #1 11-02-2008, 01:07 AM

I like it. If he can stay healthy, I think this finally gives them a legit shot at winning the Derby and I've been rooting for that for a long time. I don't believe that wintering in Dubai is a disadvantage.

blackthroatedwind · #2 11-02-2008, 01:14 AM

How is buying the best 2YO in training, after his 2YO season, any kind of accomplishment should the horse win even the KY Derby?

All it shows is that they can outspend everyone and that they lack imagination. Considering their results, for the money they have spent, they need to win two or three Triple Crowns before you could even consider them close to over achieving.

Frankly, they have a lot more to prove after this year's purchase of the breeding rights to Pyro.

Betsy · #3 11-02-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

How is buying the best 2YO in training, after his 2YO season, any kind of accomplishment should the horse win even the KY Derby?

All it shows is that they can outspend everyone and that they lack imagination. Considering their results, for the money they have spent, they need to win two or three Triple Crowns before you could even consider them close to over achieving.

Frankly, they have a lot more to prove after this year's purchase of the breeding rights to Pyro.

I agree, Andy. What I don't get is that they retired Bernardini before we got to see his best (presumably he'd be even better as a 4 year old) so that they could get his foals on the ground ASASP............because the Sheikh really wants a homegrown Derby winner. However, the Sheikh continues to buy up every single promising 2 year old because he also wants to win the Derby ASAP. For this Bernardini and his fellow 3 year olds were retired? They could have continued to run as older horses as long as the Sheikh was going to keep buying 2 year olds left and right.

Danzig · #4 11-02-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betsy

I agree, Andy. What I don't get is that they retired Bernardini before we got to see his best (presumably he'd be even better as a 4 year old) so that they could get his foals on the ground ASASP............because the Sheikh really wants a homegrown Derby winner. However, the Sheikh continues to buy up every single promising 2 year old because he also wants to win the Derby ASAP. For this Bernardini and his fellow 3 year olds were retired? They could have continued to run as older horses as long as the Sheikh was going to keep buying 2 year olds left and right.

he wants a derby winner any way he can get it. whether it be by breeding or buying, and he can afford to do both. i don't look for him to keep any of his horses running on at four-look at how discreet cat did at four, and that explains why.

Betsy · #5 11-02-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

he wants a derby winner any way he can get it. whether it be by breeding or buying, and he can afford to do both. i don't look for him to keep any of his horses running on at four-look at how discreet cat did at four, and that explains why.

If he had kept Bernardini in training, it very likely would have been a different story. DC obviously had problems and there was no reason for Bernardini to be retired. People used to call Sheikh Mo a sportsman. No way, not for me he's not. What he's doing now is not sportsmanlike either, even though he has the right.

outofthebox · #6 11-02-2008, 11:09 AM

So was this the reason Frankel kept him out of the Breeders Cup. For all we know this colt can be a one turn specialist and Frankel did not want to compromise his value if he were to run in the BC and somehow not handle the surface or the distance. Anyway good luck to the Sheik...

Danzig · #7 11-02-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betsy

If he had kept Bernardini in training, it very likely would have been a different story. DC obviously had problems and there was no reason for Bernardini to be retired. People used to call Sheikh Mo a sportsman. No way, not for me he's not. What he's doing now is not sportsmanlike either, even though he has the right.

maybe he would have had success at four, but maybe he wouldn't. it's always a crapshoot with these horses. but, the sheikh didn't need bernardini to run any longer, he wants to breed top horses as well-he's got a real hard on for coolmore, and trying to surpass their breeding program, and he needs all the help he can get in that regard.
so, racing wise, there may have been no need to retire bernardini-but breeding wise, it's another story. he's just as interested, if not more so, in developing the #1 breeding program in the world.

Quiet Chris · #8 11-02-2008, 11:48 AM

Frankel is not stupid he knows if Empire Maker can lose, anyone can lose. Take the sure thing. This horse could be hurt and retire by February if something goes wrong. This horse may want nothing to do with 10f.

Betsy · #9 11-02-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

maybe he would have had success at four, but maybe he wouldn't. it's always a crapshoot with these horses. but, the sheikh didn't need bernardini to run any longer, he wants to breed top horses as well-he's got a real hard on for coolmore, and trying to surpass their breeding program, and he needs all the help he can get in that regard.
so, racing wise, there may have been no need to retire bernardini-but breeding wise, it's another story. he's just as interested, if not more so, in developing the #1 breeding program in the world.

You're right and unfortunately, although I don't like the Sheikh, I can't say that he's the only one retiring his horses. I guess I'd better get used to it - unless a horse is a gelding or has mediocre breeding, any good 3 year old is going to be retired. It makes it hard to get attached, though.

ELA · #10 11-02-2008, 01:19 AM

Frankel made a smart decision. It's very easy to say "I wouldn't have sold" or "he has enough money so he shouldn't have sold" and so on.

I don't count other people's money (except professionally), however, it's fact that time and time again the proverbial offer has made people far wealthier than Bobby Frankel succumb to selling. Offers such as these gets people like those who Frankel might train for to sell.

Eric

letswastemoney · #11 11-02-2008, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELA

Frankel made a smart decision. It's very easy to say "I wouldn't have sold" or "he has enough money so he shouldn't have sold" and so on.

I don't count other people's money (except professionally), however, it's fact that time and time again the proverbial offer has made people far wealthier than Bobby Frankel succumb to selling. Offers such as these gets people like those who Frankel might train for to sell.

Eric

How old is Frankel though? How many years left is he really going to have a chance at the KD? 20 more years? I would take every chance I could get at this race.

ELA · #12 11-02-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

How old is Frankel though? How many years left is he really going to have a chance at the KD? 20 more years? I would take every chance I could get at this race.

I guess his age and remaining careeer wasn't part of the equation for Frankel. Like I said, it's very easy to say how you would walk wearing someone else's shoes.

Not that it matters to me, but theory-wise -- if Frankel truly has enough money (and who knows if there ever really is enough) then you have to look at the one factor that many feel they know, but certainly don't know as well as him . . . the horse. So if he truly has enough money and wants a Derby -- maybe he feels this isn't the horse to get it for him. This and the grassy knoll.

Eric

Danzig · #13 11-02-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

How old is Frankel though? How many years left is he really going to have a chance at the KD? 20 more years? I would take every chance I could get at this race.

the odds of this horse getting to, let alone winning, the derby is slim. the chance of getting the money they offered was a whole lot better.

now, his talk of if i had to do it over again, i regret it....that's unnecessary. laugh on the way to the bank and move on. if the horse manages to win, at least he can pat himself on the back for having recognized the horses raw talent back when he first started.

RolloTomasi · #14 11-02-2008, 01:47 AM

Word is that Midshipman is leaving Bob Baffert's barn and is off to Dubai, too.

Should be one hell of a UAE 2000 Guineas Trial prep.

I bet Jose Adan ends up the most accomplished Godolphin 3yo next year.

Indian Charlie · #15 11-02-2008, 01:12 AM

It's not like this horse is sired by an AP Indy or Kingmambo type.

They probably offered more than the 5 mil they paid for Worldly Manner, who frankly was much better bred.

Pretty easy decision if you ask me.

King Glorious · #16 11-02-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Seriously? I mean, every sentence you wrote, seriously?

Yes. Aside from Ruler's Court, who was injured, I never thought any of the horses they bought and took over there or any of the horses they have brought back over for the race were legit threats. I think this is the first real one. And yes, I'm seriously rooting for them to get one.

King Glorious · #17 11-02-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You failed to answer the part of your post I disagreed with the most. You don't think wintering in Dubai is a disadvantage for a horse trying to win the Kentucky Derby? How many more once promising horses need to be sent there, only to come back a fraction of what the once were, if they even come back to race at all? Do you think all of this is a coincidence?

No, I don't. It's also a matter of how much one thinks of the horses that have gone over there. I haven't thought much of the Derby prospects of any of the horses they've sent over before outside of Ruler's Court. Oh, and Discreet Cat. But I don't blame injuries on Dubai as many promising horses that don't go over there get hurt training here. So many people are quick to say that what they are doing doesn't work because they haven't had success yet. Does what Todd Pletcher does work? What about what Bobby Frankel does? For years, Wayne Lukas wasn't winning either. Without the right ammo, nobody can do it and I just personally feel they haven't had the right ammo.

Bobby Fischer · #18 11-02-2008, 03:51 AM

his left front leg looks like trash. This horse is not a derby contender.

Round Pen · #19 11-02-2008, 07:51 AM

Maybe Joe Torre Can use his share of the money to Help sign Manny again

Scav · #20 11-02-2008, 08:47 AM

They also just bought Jose Adan from Catalano and family.