Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

No, what you stated clearly was that Singspiel did not deserve the Turf eclipse because he never won in the US (nor did Pilsudski for that matter). However, unlike Pilsudski (whom Singspiel lit up in England earlier in the year), Singspiel could at least claim more than one start in North America (not to be confused with the Pacific Rim), with a record of one win, one second in two Grade 1 starts (one of which being the all-important BC Turf).

Not particularly a strong hand, but when you consider the closest US-based horse finish in that year's BC Turf was the older mare (and ex-Euro) Windsharp, and further still down to 6th to find a male (and ex-Euro) Talloires, it's not a stretch to see why voters were hesitant to give it to some underachieving patriot.

For those keeping score, the All-American Awad was next closest homer, finishing 9th. Diplomatic Jet beat two horses, one of whom was Rick's Natural Star.

Next.

Do you make this up? Where do you get that I've EVER said he didn't deserve it? I've never once said that. My only intention for ever bringing up this situation is when people suggest that foreign records do not count when it comes to balloting for the Eclipse awards. They act like only records compiled in the U.S count and I only point out that plenty of horses over the past have been awarded championships based on records in races won outside of this country, Singspiel being the best example. Personally, I am in favor of factoring in foreign records and if I had a vote in 1996, I would have voted for Singspiel also.

[ELA]

Connections don't manage horses for the fans. Period. Fans will continue to be disappointed if they hold owners and trainers to that standard. This filly was entered exactly where she should have been -- the best spot -- for themselves and for the filly. Nobody can debate they the connections don't have the filly's best interest in mind. That decision was based upon what the connections felt was best for her, and in reality nobody can dispute that as they don't "know" a fraction of what the trainer "knows" about this filly.

If there was some overt, constant, lobbying, etc. for her to be horse of the year and they were grandstanding about it, then you ask the question and critisize the decision that was made, and ultimately not give it to her because of the decision. That is not going on here. The trainer was asked a question -- a stereotypical, nonsensical question which means absolutely nothing -- and he answered it by complimenting his horse, and I think he did it humbly. He showed class -- which he always does. Maybe some people just don't recognize it.

Eric

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by ELA

Connections don't manage horses for the fans. Period. Fans will continue to be disappointed if they hold owners and trainers to that standard. This filly was entered exactly where she should have been -- the best spot -- for themselves and for the filly. Nobody can debate they the connections don't have the filly's best interest in mind. That decision was based upon what the connections felt was best for her, and in reality nobody can dispute that as they don't "know" a fraction of what the trainer "knows" about this filly.

If there was some overt, constant, lobbying, etc. for her to be horse of the year and they were grandstanding about it, then you ask the question and critisize the decision that was made, and ultimately not give it to her because of the decision. That is not going on here. The trainer was asked a question -- a stereotypical, nonsensical question which means absolutely nothing -- and he answered it by complimenting his horse, and I think he did it humbly. He showed class -- which he always does. Maybe some people just don't recognize it.

Eric

well said, and for this we have a "I have lost all respect for John Shirreffs".

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

They act like only records compiled in the U.S count and I only point out that plenty of horses over the past have been awarded championships based on records in races won outside of this country, Singspiel being the best example.

I don't see how you can be so certain that the foreign records are weighted so heavily. I would even doubt that they are scrutinized with anything more than a passing glance.

Did Hatoof's Group 2 win France somehow tip the scales in her favor in '93? What about Miss Alleged's mighty Group 3 win back in '91?

Your tried and true fallback is Miesque who resoundingly destroyed the competition in the BC Mile, as did Arazi (and to a lesser extent, Johannesburg) in the Juvenile. It could be argued those dominating performances were enough to sway voters regardless of exploits overseas.

The one instance where you might have a point is BC dead-heater High Chapparal in '03, and even then, I'd guess that voters were more swayed by the fact that they gave him the Eclipse in '02, as opposed to anything specific he did in Britain in '03.

[dalakhani]

im not going to get in the way of your little debate here but i found the voting for turf eclipse in 2002 to be especially interesting. High Chaparral wins off of one victory. With anticipation is second with 11 votes. Third place? Rock of Gibraltar who didnt even win a race here.

Explain that please.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Third place? Rock of Gibraltar who didnt even win a race here.

Explain that please.

Explain what exactly? Rock Of Gibraltar didn't come close to winning the Eclipse, did he?

Apparently he was just some half-assed nominee to complete the ballot.

Who were the nominees alongside Favorite Trick or Storm Flag Flying or Halfbridled or Personal Ensign, etc.?

[Danzig]

i guess it just means ROG got a vote from someone, which got him into the final three. the top three vote getters are those who are announced as being in the running in january, apparently some nimrod thought he deserved a vote.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i guess it just means ROG got a vote from someone, which got him into the final three. the top three vote getters are those who are announced as being in the running in january, apparently some nimrod thought he deserved a vote.

But it had to be more than just ONE "nimrod". No?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But it had to be more than just ONE "nimrod". No?

no

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Explain what exactly? Rock Of Gibraltar didn't come close to winning the Eclipse, did he?

Apparently he was just some half-assed nominee to complete the ballot.

Who were the nominees alongside Favorite Trick or Storm Flag Flying or Halfbridled or Personal Ensign, etc.?

The point is he was nominated. Based on what? Surely it wasnt his North American accomplishments because he never won a race here...unless im mistaken.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

The point is he was nominated. Based on what? Surely it wasnt his North American accomplishments because he never won a race here...unless im mistaken.

there aren't nominations. finalists are based on the top three vote getters in each category-and that is decided purely by those who get a ballot.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there aren't nominations. finalists are based on the top three vote getters in each category-and that is decided purely by those who get a ballot.

Okay...fine. He was a top three vote getter. Based on what?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I don't see how you can be so certain that the foreign records are weighted so heavily. I would even doubt that they are scrutinized with anything more than a passing glance.

Did Hatoof's Group 2 win France somehow tip the scales in her favor in '93? What about Miss Alleged's mighty Group 3 win back in '91?

Your tried and true fallback is Miesque who resoundingly destroyed the competition in the BC Mile, as did Arazi (and to a lesser extent, Johannesburg) in the Juvenile. It could be argued those dominating performances were enough to sway voters regardless of exploits overseas.

The one instance where you might have a point is BC dead-heater High Chapparal in '03, and even then, I'd guess that voters were more swayed by the fact that they gave him the Eclipse in '02, as opposed to anything specific he did in Britain in '03.

Hatoof won the title in 1994. In addition to her second in the BC Turf against males, she also won the Beverly D. Stakes here in the U.S.

Miss Alleged won the title in 1991. In addition to her win in the BC Turf against males, she also win the Hollywood Turf Cup against males.

I fail to see your point in those instances.

[blackthroatedwind]

It has already been stated a couple of times in this thread that there are no rules.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It has already been stated a couple of times in this thread that there are no rules.

Well, there is the one rule that says you have to have started at least one time here in NA. After that, it's all subjective. For some of the voters, European form is taken into account. For others, it's not. But to say that foreign form doesn't count is just incorrect because if foreign form wasn't taken into consideration in a lot of instances, I bet there would be a few different winners.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Well, there is the one rule that says you have to have started at least one time here in NA. After that, it's all subjective. For some of the voters, European form is taken into account. For others, it's not. But to say that foreign form doesn't count is just incorrect because if foreign form wasn't taken into consideration in a lot of instances, I bet there would be a few different winners.

Thanks....I assumed that was implicit but I should have thrown that in.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Hatoof won the title in 1994. In addition to her second in the BC Turf against males, she also won the Beverly D. Stakes here in the U.S.

Miss Alleged won the title in 1991. In addition to her win in the BC Turf against males, she also win the Hollywood Turf Cup against males.

I fail to see your point in those instances.

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

It might work for Mignight Lute even though one of the starts was a horrible loss.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Cool.

So now you admit that just two North American starts is enough to earn the Eclipse.

Let's add Singspiel to that list, too, please.

I think one is enough. You don't need two. I would have voted Ghostzapper in 2005 off of one start.