Now I Have Zero Respect Left for Shirreffs

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I hope your paranoia doesn't go so far as to actually believe this. If nothing else, your giving the voters way too much credit.

How come nobody on the East Coast has a East Coast/West Coast bias paranoia?

I may give them to much credit, but have seen things like this play out in the past, and think the synthetic tracks will only heighten some of the logic they use.

I highly doubt the segment who has not been victimized in the past would have a bias paranoia.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Of course he belongs in the conversation and making an argument for him isn't hard.

I couldn't care less who wins HOY. I am concerned with who wins horse races in the future.....not awards.

well I guess running in the BC is now a must as all the hot air i hear about the award only contains 2 names. I never thought i would be defending big Brown but he has accomplished as much or more than the other two though i would get physically sick if i actually watched the Eclipse awards show regardless of who won.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

well I guess running in the BC is now a must as all the hot air i hear about the award only contains 2 names. I never thought i would be defending big Brown but he has accomplished as much or more than the other two though i would get physically sick if i actually watched the Eclipse awards show regardless of who won.

I would imagine it has something to do with his competition for the award this season, maybe in a year when Azeri won it he would have a great shot but there are two horses who had tremendous years. Frankly winning 2/3rds of the triple crown, I dont think it carries the same weight as it once did in people minds.

[dylbert]

Curlin is HOTY. He could not enter Ladies Classic. Zenyatta could have entered Classic, outrun Raven's Pass, and claim HOTY honors, but did not choose that path.

This is somewhat like BCS college football debate (or as some would say, debacle). There is no playoff system in horse racing either. Horses compete, and avoid, each other throughout calendar year. Therefore, let's encourage Curlin, Zenyatta, and Raven's Pass to all enter Clark at Churchill Downs next month. If Zenyatta and Raven's Pass aren't "surface specialists", their connections should not fear challenging Curlin on his preferred surface, dirt.

Other suggestions, thoughts, or ideas?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I may give them to much credit, but have seen things like this play out in the past, and think the synthetic tracks will only heighten some of the logic they use.

I highly doubt the segment who has not been victimized in the past would have a bias paranoia.

Is this a version of " you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you? "

You're nuts.

Didn't Kotashan and Azeri win HOY? Didn't Ferdinand somehow beat Theatrical?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I would imagine it has something to do with his competition for the award this season, maybe in a year when Azeri won it he would have a great shot but there are two horses who had tremendous years. Frankly winning 2/3rds of the triple crown, I dont think it carries the same weight as it once did in people minds.

Curlin had a tremendous year? You obviously have low standards. Zenyatta had a good year but beat only fillies and outside of 2 races very forgettable fillies. Since when is the KY Derby and Preakness and Haskell not big enough races?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dylbert

Curlin is HOTY. He could not enter Ladies Classic. Zenyatta could have entered Classic, outrun Raven's Pass, and claim HOTY honors, but did not choose that path.

This is somewhat like BCS college football debate (or as some would say, debacle). There is no playoff system in horse racing either. Horses compete, and avoid, each other throughout calendar year. Therefore, let's encourage Curlin, Zenyatta, and Raven's Pass to all enter Clark at Churchill Downs next month. If Zenyatta and Raven's Pass aren't "surface specialists", their connections should not fear challenging Curlin on his preferred surface, dirt.

Other suggestions, thoughts, or ideas?

Curlin won three weak dirt races and finished off the board despite leading in the stretch in his last race. Would you vote Notre Dame number one too?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Is this a version of " you're not paranoid if they're really out to get you? "

You're nuts.

Didn't Kotashan and Azeri win HOY? Didn't Ferdinand somehow beat Theatrical?

I argue that they negativity surrounding from the eastern part of the country, the only major year round ciruit that still has dirt, that synthetics will heighten how and why they vote and you bring up Azeri, I dont see how they are related.

Theatrical is a turf horse, if he wanted to win a award that is supposed to go to a dirt runner (I read that a couple pages back) he should have entered that race....I think I saw that here with Zenyatta running in the classic.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Curlin had a tremendous year? You obviously have low standards. Zenyatta had a good year but beat only fillies and outside of 2 races very forgettable fillies. Since when is the KY Derby and Preakness and Haskell not big enough races?

The names on the races don't make the races though. If your competition sucked, it sucked. Since when were the JCGC and Woodward not big enough? None of these races are good races just because the name says they are. The Haskell was no better than the Woodward. The Derby and Preakness were no better than Dubai and the JCGC. The Florida Derby was no better than the Foster.

I was just talking with someone and told them that I come from the school of thought that says you have to knock out the champ. If you let it come down to a decision against the champ, you lose. Well, BB didn't knock out the champ on any scorecard. The only thing that could be said is that he tied him on a couple.

Quality of races won-draw.
Number of grade ones-draw.
Speed figures-Curlin by a lot.

I'd even give Curlin the edge in quality of competition faced. Wanderin Boy, Well Armed, and AP Arrow.....they aren't exactly a who's who of racing. But I'd take them in a landslide over Coal Play, Smooth Air, Eight Belles, Denis of Cork, Anak Nakal, and Tomcito.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Curlin had a tremendous year? You obviously have low standards. Zenyatta had a good year but beat only fillies and outside of 2 races very forgettable fillies. Since when is the KY Derby and Preakness and Haskell not big enough races?

And who did Big Brown beat?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

And who did Big Brown beat?

to be fair, he beat everyone he faced. except for kent desormeaux.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I argue that they negativity surrounding from the eastern part of the country, the only major year round ciruit that still has dirt, that synthetics will heighten how and why they vote and you bring up Azeri, I dont see how they are related.

Theatrical is a turf horse, if he wanted to win a award that is supposed to go to a dirt runner (I read that a couple pages back) he should have entered that race....I think I saw that here with Zenyatta running in the classic.

Azeri was a West Coast horse that won HOY ( and a reasonably questionable one at that ). Kotashan was a West Coast horse that won as well ( and a turf horse ). Theatrical was also a turf horse, and one that won six or seven Grade 1s over the course of nine months, and he lost to a West Coast horse with a decent but hardly spectacular resume.

Your perception of East Coast bias has no basis in fact. If you think the voters won't vote for Zenyatta because they see it as some sort of endorsement of polytrack then you are dead wrong, paranoid, and have no understanding of the voters in general.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Your perception of East Coast bias has no basis in fact. If you think the voters won't vote for Zenyatta because they see it as some sort of endorsement of polytrack then you are dead wrong, paranoid, and have no understanding of the voters in general.

Let me ask you this, who is going to win the champion sprinter for the year?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Let me ask you this, who is going to win the champion sprinter for the year?

I have no idea who would even be qualified. I guess Midnite Lute might simply because he won the theoretical biggest race but you would have to tell me who is even in the hunt. The three NY Grade 1s were won by Bustin Stones, First Defence and Black Seventeen. I find it hard to believe any of them are in the running. Divine park won the Met....and basically nothing else. How could he be involved.

I am annoyed now that I even spent 30 seconds thinking about it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

The names on the races don't make the races though. If your competition sucked, it sucked. Since when were the JCGC and Woodward not big enough? None of these races are good races just because the name says they are. The Haskell was no better than the Woodward. The Derby and Preakness were no better than Dubai and the JCGC. The Florida Derby was no better than the Foster.

I was just talking with someone and told them that I come from the school of thought that says you have to knock out the champ. If you let it come down to a decision against the champ, you lose. Well, BB didn't knock out the champ on any scorecard. The only thing that could be said is that he tied him on a couple.

Quality of races won-draw.
Number of grade ones-draw.
Speed figures-Curlin by a lot.

I'd even give Curlin the edge in quality of competition faced. Wanderin Boy, Well Armed, and AP Arrow.....they aren't exactly a who's who of racing. But I'd take them in a landslide over Coal Play, Smooth Air, Eight Belles, Denis of Cork, Anak Nakal, and Tomcito.

Dubai doesnt count. speed figures are now part of the process? You just used AP Arrow in a positive way. I give up. Andy is right. If this qualifies as a good thing than it simply isnt worth trying.

[CSC]

As long as it's Big Brown or Curlin, I don't care which one it is. The HOY has to be able to beat Curlin or Big Brown if they were to meet in a championship race, not just be competitive but be able to beat them with reasonable certainty, something I can't say for sure Zenyatta would do by her limited competition this yr. Perfect record does not equal HOY to me, rather than best horse should.

[RolloTomasi]

I heard his defenders talking about how he's brought her along slowly and because she's only run 9f once, taking her to a 10f race against the best in the world wasn't practical. Then we watched two 3yo's who had never been past a mile and were trying a new surface for the first time and shipping across the ocean to do it run 1-2.

Not the same scenario. Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator, both of whom are likely never to run again (one confirmed), were essentially throwing up a Hail Mary to add luster to their stallion credentials. It worked. But note both were 20-1 to do it.

Zenyatta, who would have been 2nd choice, is likely to remain in training. She has all of next year to duck males. Save your bitching for then.

Besides, what were the odds Shirreffs was on a soapbox outside his Hollywood Park barn on a dark day actively "campaigning" for Zenyatta as HOY? Isn't it more likely a bunch of racing journalists were baiting him all morning with questions about it? What was he supposed to say, "No, she doesn't deserve to be considered (note he didn't necessarily say she deserved it anyways) at all."?

Next thing you know, your buddy John Sadler would be training the horse.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I couldn't care less who wins HOY. I am concerned with who wins horse races in the future.....not awards.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I didn't see Curlin or Zenyatta run last this year. They ran decently in all their races. It's between those two. B.B. ran horribly in the Belmont. Then, was desperate to beat mediocre horses in his next 2 races. So, he ran 3 good races against three year olds that aren't that fast. He just didn't progress. He didn't face much in his last two races. So, for HOY consideration he should of drawn off, but he (instead) barely won.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I have no idea who would even be qualified. I guess Midnite Lute might simply because he won the theoretical biggest race but you would have to tell me who is even in the hunt. The three NY Grade 1s were won by Bustin Stones, First Defence and Black Seventeen. I find it hard to believe any of them are in the running. Divine park won the Met....and basically nothing else. How could he be involved.

I am annoyed now that I even spent 30 seconds thinking about it.

See, by far the best sprinter on accomplishment has been Street Boss, and he ran solid this past weekend, yet it did not even cross your eastern biased mind.