Defining a "GREAT" horse

dalakhani · #1 08-23-2006, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

When the subject is American racing ... yes ... it's quite evident that the most talented horses are trained for the dirt ... and ...

... and only when they disappoint there ... are they tried on the lawn.As far as "turf is where most all champions run" ... that's patent nonsense ... since 7 of the 10 Eclipse Awards are given to horses which race on dirt ... and I'm being generous by considering jumpers to be turf horses.

You're not one of those Euroweenies .. are you?

For the most part what you say is true. The only issue i have is the use of the phrase "only when they dissapoint"...or more specifically the word "only".

Lava Man, at very least an HOY candidate, was tried on the turf this year. In recent years, so have dirt successes such as Peace Rules and Congaree.

horseofcourse · #2 08-23-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

For the most part what you say is true. The only issue i have is the use of the phrase "only when they dissapoint"...or more specifically the word "only".

Lava Man, at very least an HOY candidate, was tried on the turf this year. In recent years, so have dirt successes such as Peace Rules and Congaree.

Of course the horse I mentioned...Showing Up as well. HE wasn't exactly chopped liver on dirt winning his 1st 3 including the grade 2 Lexington and then running a decent 6th in the Ky Derby before going to the lawn.

#3 08-24-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Of course the horse I mentioned...Showing Up as well. HE wasn't exactly chopped liver on dirt winning his 1st 3 including the grade 2 Lexington and then running a decent 6th in the Ky Derby before going to the lawn.

But he's not "great" ... is he?

horseofcourse · #4 08-24-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

But he's not "great" ... is he?

Of course not. People were responding to good horses that went to turf who were not failures on dirt like Lava Man and I mentioned Showing Up who ran good races on dirt this year and certainly didn't embarrass himself in the Derby, his last race on dirt before going to the grass.

sham · #5 08-24-2006, 07:52 PM

OK I got it figured out. A "great" horse is one that can run within 20 lengths of Secretariat. An "all time great" horse is one that can run within 10 lengths of Secretariat.

#6 08-24-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sham

OK I got it figured out. A "great" horse is one that can run within 20 lengths of Secretariat. An "all time great" horse is one that can run within 10 lengths of Secretariat.

Yup ... that'll do.

Too bad we can't stage all the races to prove it.

ceejay · #7 08-24-2006, 09:41 PM

I haven't read the whole thread and someone may have said this, but to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, I can't define what a "great" horse is, but I know it when I see it.
http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html

Phalaris1913 · #8 08-25-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sham

OK I got it figured out. A "great" horse is one that can run within 20 lengths of Secretariat. An "all time great" horse is one that can run within 10 lengths of Secretariat.

What about all of the horses who beat Secretariat?

sham · #9 08-25-2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

What about all of the horses who beat Secretariat?

I was thinking along the lines of average margin of victory over a three race series with each horse at his best. Actually I was initially joking, but now that I think more about it, the rule of thumb might hold up.

somerfrost · #10 08-23-2006, 11:57 PM

A couple points...I do think there have been American raced horses who ran only on the turf that I would consider great...Manila, for example, I rank #74. Regarding the statement that a Triple Crown winner isn't necessarily great...I disagree! I think a TC winner is great by definition...of the 11 winners, the lowest ranking I give any is Sir Barton at #50. So many wonderful horses have failed to capture the TC...Native Dancer, Spectacular Bid, Risen Star, Sham to name just a few...all ranking in my top 50 yet failing to capture the TC. As others have said, winning the TC requires much more than 3 good races...a horse has to perform throughout the fall and winter of his/her 2 year old campaign and through to the first Saturday in May and then come back on two weeks rest and again on three to the most grueling races of his/her career...only a great horse does that!