Workout injury ends Big Brown Cup hopes, career..

Antitrust32 · #1 10-15-2008, 09:32 AM

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ordinary-horse

Haskin wrote a good piece on Big Brown.

RollerDoc · #2 10-15-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

"Good" is an interesting way of describing that article.

It wasn't a good article by Haskin, like Big Brown it was a GREAT article. He said brilliantly all the things I was trying to say about this horse during his magical journey in 2008. He's not Secretariat, but certainly some outstanding accomplishments and I for one am glad I didn't take those for granted. Now he is retired, and this athlete will be missed.

For those who have not read it yet, I hope you will.

RollerDoc · #3 10-15-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Honestly, the article made me nauseous. Magical journey? Did Haskin steal your log in?

I just e-mailed him my Facebook friend request

"Nauseous?" Oh you mean when the article gets to the stuff about Casino Drive? Yeah me too

Seriously, what are the holes of contention you have with it? If you wouldn't mind taking the time,

Cannon Shell · #4 10-15-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I just e-mailed him my Facebook friend request

RollerDoc · #5 10-15-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Good Lord.....Now what did I do?

Cannon Shell · #6 10-15-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Good Lord.....Now what did I do?

too much info

RollerDoc · #7 10-15-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

With all due respect to Haskin, I've never been a fan of his writing. Puff pieces aren't really my thing, but this one was god awful.

This is a portion of what made me projectile vomit on my screen.

"He would stop while walking the shed to pose for photographers, and was aware of everything around him. "
and

"One time, after being led out to be washed, he looked up and intently eyed a pigeon on the roof for several minutes."

Come on....

Well I agree on the fluffy stuff like that but I am talking about what he detailed regarding the field Big Brown faced, his accomplishments, and take on speeds that have been a fair degree of negativity by the Big Brown detractors. I could copy and paste but you've read it and I think there are some compelling points.

blackthroatedwind · #8 10-15-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Well I agree on the fluffy stuff like that but I am talking about what he detailed regarding the field Big Brown faced, his accomplishments, and take on speeds that have been a fair degree of negativity by the Big Brown detractors. I could copy and paste but you've read it and I think there are some compelling points.

In most cases, the winner of the KY Derby beats the horses that come back to win the lesser 3YO Stakes throughout the year.

philcski · #9 10-15-2008, 03:24 PM

As an aside to the return to racing discussion, Frisco Star ran at 2 and 3, entered stud in 2007, was found to have poor fertility and returned to racing this year. Did poorly at sprints, stretched out to a route at PID and aired.

RollerDoc · #10 10-15-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Like what, that he beat a good field last time? He didn't.

Like this:

Beyer speed figure pundits claim Big Brown wasn’t as fast as champions of the past, but his Ragozin and Thoro-Graph numbers for the Kentucky Derby were the fastest ever recorded, including those of Secretariat, Monarchos, Spend a Buck, and other brilliant Derby winners. What makes those figures even more amazing was the fact that he also recorded the fourth fastest final Derby prep ever. So, instead of regressing off that race or pairing up, as the three horses who ran as fast or faster in their final prep did, he actually jumped up and ran a bigger number. Horses just don’t do that.

King Glorious · #11 10-15-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Like this:

Beyer speed figure pundits claim Big Brown wasn’t as fast as champions of the past, but his Ragozin and Thoro-Graph numbers for the Kentucky Derby were the fastest ever recorded, including those of Secretariat, Monarchos, Spend a Buck, and other brilliant Derby winners. What makes those figures even more amazing was the fact that he also recorded the fourth fastest final Derby prep ever. So, instead of regressing off that race or pairing up, as the three horses who ran as fast or faster in their final prep did, he actually jumped up and ran a bigger number. Horses just don’t do that.

You'd also have to recognize that those two scales have changed over the years. The writer fails to mention that but they've made it nearly impossible to compare horses of different eras.

RollerDoc · #12 10-15-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You'd also have to recognize that those two scales have changed over the years. The writer fails to mention that but they've made it nearly impossible to compare horses of different eras.

Have they changed that much to fully dispute the point?

blackthroatedwind · #13 10-15-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Like this:

Beyer speed figure pundits claim Big Brown wasn’t as fast as champions of the past, but his Ragozin and Thoro-Graph numbers for the Kentucky Derby were the fastest ever recorded, including those of Secretariat, Monarchos, Spend a Buck, and other brilliant Derby winners. What makes those figures even more amazing was the fact that he also recorded the fourth fastest final Derby prep ever. So, instead of regressing off that race or pairing up, as the three horses who ran as fast or faster in their final prep did, he actually jumped up and ran a bigger number. Horses just don’t do that.

Actually, good horses do improve off good races....especially lightly raced ones. Why would it be surprising when a 3YO ran better in his fourth career start than he did in his third career start?

Saying he ran a faster speed figure than Monarchos hardly places him in rarified air. And, furthermore, finding a speed figure that backs up your assertions, while rejecting another, especially if you have EVER used that other speed figure to defend a horse, is a slippery slope.

RollerDoc · #14 10-15-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually, good horses do improve off good races....especially lightly raced ones. Why would it be surprising when a 3YO ran better in his fourth career start than he did in his third career start?

Saying he ran a faster speed figure than Monarchos hardly places him in rarified air. And, furthermore, finding a speed figure that backs up your assertions, while rejecting another, especially if you have EVER used that other speed figure to defend a horse, is a slippery slope.

Do you think the writer has his own agenda when he wrote the article? What is in it for him to be so flattering of Big Brown?

RollerDoc · #15 10-15-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Monarchos? Come on....

And I call bullsh.it that horses don't jump up and run a bigger number off a big effort. Plenty of horses do. It's all fluff and bad fluff at that.

OK then explain this:

Big Brown accomplished that in only his third and fourth races of his career and breaking from posts 12 and 20, respectively. The last horse to win the Derby with only three career starts was in 1915, and no horse had ever won the Derby from post 20. Although his speed figures regressed a bit in the Preakness, which was expected, he still won by 5 1/4 lengths and was virtually eased in the final furlong.

blackthroatedwind · #16 10-15-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

OK then explain this:

Big Brown accomplished that in only his third and fourth races of his career and breaking from posts 12 and 20, respectively. The last horse to win the Derby with only three career starts was in 1915, and no horse had ever won the Derby from post 20. Although his speed figures regressed a bit in the Preakness, which was expected, he still won by 5 1/4 lengths and was virtually eased in the final furlong.

That's easy to explain.....he beat decidely slow horses.

paisjpq · #17 10-15-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

OK then explain this:

Big Brown accomplished that in only his third and fourth races of his career and breaking from posts 12 and 20, respectively. The last horse to win the Derby with only three career starts was in 1915, and no horse had ever won the Derby from post 20. Although his speed figures regressed a bit in the Preakness, which was expected, he still won by 5 1/4 lengths and was virtually eased in the final furlong.

no offense but all you have to do is start talking about BB's "conformity" and you could be my rather tiresome neighbor

Danzig · #18 10-15-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

OK then explain this:

Big Brown accomplished that in only his third and fourth races of his career and breaking from posts 12 and 20, respectively. The last horse to win the Derby with only three career starts was in 1915, and no horse had ever won the Derby from post 20. Although his speed figures regressed a bit in the Preakness, which was expected, he still won by 5 1/4 lengths and was virtually eased in the final furlong.

somebody better remove clyde van dusens name from that derby trophy then....that fraud.

blackthroatedwind · #19 10-15-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

He deserves a lot of credit for winning from the 12 hole going 9 furlongs at Gulfstream and winning the Derby from the 20 post in his 4th start. There is no disputing that. He was a very good horse. I don't know what it is you want people to say. I don't think anyone will argue he was a very good horse. He accomplished a lot in his short career and was the lone bright spot in a terrible crop of 3 year old males. I'm not even sure what fight you're fighting anymore.

Exactly.

RollerDoc · #20 10-15-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

He deserves a lot of credit for winning from the 12 hole going 9 furlongs at Gulfstream and winning the Derby from the 20 post in his 4th start. There is no disputing that. He was a very good horse. I don't know what it is you want people to say. I don't think anyone will argue he was a very good horse. He accomplished a lot in his short career and was the lone bright spot in a terrible crop of 3 year old males. I'm not even sure what fight you're fighting anymore.

OK then can we just agree on the following?

One time, after being led out to be washed, Big Brown looked up and intently eyed a pigeon on the roof for several minutes