Silver Train

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Silver Train is the Lava Man of the east coast. In fact, he is worse than Lava Man. At least Lava Man can win on different surfaces and at different tracks in Cali. SIlver Train can only win on the dirt at Belmont. Good Belmont sprinter is all. Nothing really to get excited about. But kudos to Dutrow for knowing his horse sucks everywhere else but Belmont.

He broke his maiden by many lengths at Saratoga. And I applaud both he and O Neill for knowing the strengths and weaknesses of their animals.

[Slewstoo]

You make some good points about Silver Train oracle, but do you think he would deserve champion sprinter this year if he wins out but doesn't compete in the BC Sprint?

Currently, he's at the top of most of the sprinter polls that I've seen, but I would have a really hard time awarding him the title if he doesn't run in the BC. Just my opinion though.

Originally Posted by Slewstoo

You make some good points about Silver Train oracle, but do you think he would deserve champion sprinter this year if he wins out but doesn't compete in the BC Sprint?

Currently, he's at the top of most of the sprinter polls that I've seen, but I would have a really hard time awarding him the title if he doesn't run in the BC. Just my opinion though.

Well I think if someone wins the BC sprint who has the credentials upon other accomplishments this year that they should win it. The BC has become the defining way to crown a champion. But if someone wins it who hasnt done much else I think that it should go to the horse who has accomplished the most this year. Silver Train hasn't done enough yet to merit champion status. He'd have to win the Vosburgh and the Cigar Mile first.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Slewstoo

You make some good points about Silver Train oracle, but do you think he would deserve champion sprinter this year if he wins out but doesn't compete in the BC Sprint?

Currently, he's at the top of most of the sprinter polls that I've seen, but I would have a really hard time awarding him the title if he doesn't run in the BC. Just my opinion though.

It kinda depends whether you consider a mile a sprint race or not. Some people do and some don't. If he has wins in the Met Mile and Cigar Mile that you count towards the Sprint Division then he'd be tough to deny the Sprint Award, especially if he beat the eventual BC Sprint winner in the Vosburgh. If you ignore the mile races then he doesn't stand a chance as his only sprint win would be the Vosburgh.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It kinda depends whether you consider a mile a sprint race or not. Some people do and some don't. If he has wins in the Met Mile and Cigar Mile that you count towards the Sprint Division then he'd be tough to deny the Sprint Award, especially if he beat the eventual BC Sprint winner in the Vosburgh. If you ignore the mile races then he doesn't stand a chance as his only sprint win would be the Vosburgh.

Agreed Sniper, I don't think anyone thinks that anything less than a sweep of the Vosburgh and Cigar Mile would get him champ. But the Lava Man argument as far as where he races doesnt quite apply here. Most of the big sprints are in either Cali or NY. Its not like the handicap division where they run big ones one both coasts and in Dubai, and at the Cup(wherever it is), and in Florida(Donn) and in Ky(Foster) and in Maryland(Pim Special). Most of the past sprint champs were based on one Coast and ran there until the BC. Foggy was an exception shipping everywhere possible all year long.

[dalakhani]

I love what Dutrow says here. I love the fact that he isnt making up some mysterious injury or some other excuse to duck. He is basically being honest about the horse's strengths and weaknesses and doing right by the horse. By the end of the year, according to his proposed schedule, Silver train will have run 6-7 times. Not too shabby for this day and age.

Kudos to Dutrow for being a stand up guy.

Silver Train 2006 won: 2 lost: 2

DRF Past performances - Silver Train - Bordonaro - Surf Cat - Henny Hughes
http://www.drf.com/row/watch_pps/sp.pdf

Originally Posted by oracle80

Agreed Sniper, I don't think anyone thinks that anything less than a sweep of the Vosburgh and Cigar Mile would get him champ. But the Lava Man argument as far as where he races doesnt quite apply here. Most of the big sprints are in either Cali or NY. Its not like the handicap division where they run big ones one both coasts and in Dubai, and at the Cup(wherever it is), and in Florida(Donn) and in Ky(Foster) and in Maryland(Pim Special). Most of the past sprint champs were based on one Coast and ran there until the BC. Foggy was an exception shipping everywhere possible all year long.

He won a maiden race at Saratoga--big deal. The fact remains that the horse cant win anywhere other than Belmont. Where was he in the Vanderbilt? Dutrow is smart and he is keeping his horse at Belmont. The horse will not win an eclipse unless he wins the BC Sprint. Silver Train and Lava Man are the same horse. But Lava Man can win on turf and at different tracks.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

He won a maiden race at Saratoga--big deal. The fact remains that the horse cant win anywhere other than Belmont. Where was he in the Vanderbilt? Dutrow is smart and he is keeping his horse at Belmont. The horse will not win an eclipse unless he wins the BC Sprint. Silver Train and Lava Man are the same horse. But Lava Man can win on turf and at different tracks.

I agree, and I'm a Silver Train fan. I loved Old Trieste and he did well in his too brief career at stud; his most promising colt, Venetian Sunset, broke down, so I'm glad ST will be around to carry on his legacy. That being said, I think it's pretty pathetic that the horse will very likely skip the BC Sprint because he can't run well outside of Belmont. That is not the mark of a champion to me. Now, one of my favorite horses, Slew o'Gold, could never win outside NY, and that bothers me still a bit. At least he won on different tracks. Silver Train is talented - he couldn't do what he's done at Belmont without having any natural ability as a track can only carry a horse so far - but he's very limited.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I agree, and I'm a Silver Train fan. I loved Old Trieste and he did well in his too brief career at stud; his most promising colt, Venetian Sunset, broke down, so I'm glad ST will be around to carry on his legacy. That being said, I think it's pretty pathetic that the horse will very likely skip the BC Sprint because he can't run well outside of Belmont. That is not the mark of a champion to me. Now, one of my favorite horses, Slew o'Gold, could never win outside NY, and that bothers me still a bit. At least he won on different tracks. Silver Train is talented - he couldn't do what he's done at Belmont without having any natural ability as a track can only carry a horse so far - but he's very limited.

I liked Venetian Sunset, lots of promise.

It's only a half-brother, but look out for Shining Armor by Mr. Greeley.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I agree, and I'm a Silver Train fan. I loved Old Trieste and he did well in his too brief career at stud; his most promising colt, Venetian Sunset, broke down, so I'm glad ST will be around to carry on his legacy. That being said, I think it's pretty pathetic that the horse will very likely skip the BC Sprint because he can't run well outside of Belmont. That is not the mark of a champion to me. Now, one of my favorite horses, Slew o'Gold, could never win outside NY, and that bothers me still a bit. At least he won on different tracks. Silver Train is talented - he couldn't do what he's done at Belmont without having any natural ability as a track can only carry a horse so far - but he's very limited.

Slew O Gold never got his just due, IMO. He didn't really come around til the Belmont of his 3YO year. The only non-NY track after that I can remember him running at was Hol in the 1984 BC Classic, in which he was narrowly beaten while running on a bad foot.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by oracle80

He broke his maiden by many lengths at Saratoga. And I applaud both he and O Neill for knowing the strengths and weaknesses of their animals.

Their "strength" might just be in the medications both those guys use.

[Damascus '67]

Originally Posted by JJP

Their "strength" might just be in the medications both those guys use.

Silver Train wins at Belmont..Detention barn..How medicated can he be?

Originally Posted by JJP

Their "strength" might just be in the medications both those guys use.

Really? The explain why St Liam won at: Aqueduct, Belmont, CD, Gulfstream.
Dutrows percentage is high at every venue he runs at, every damn one. Almost the same percentage across the board. Hes won at high % at CD(where he had a division this past spring), Gulfstream, Monmouth(where he has a division) NYRA tracks, and he shipped Offlee Wild to Suffolk to win the Mass Cap and Dutrow has won big races in Maryland(the General George AND the Barbara Fritchie), Pennsylvania (the PA derby), etc,
The argument that hes getting away with cheating in one specific jurisdiction is nonsense and holds absolutely no water whatsoever.
So genius you think hes fooling all these jurisdictions?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Really? The explain why St Liam won at: Aqueduct, Belmont, CD, Gulfstream.
Dutrows percentage is high at every venue he runs at, every damn one. Almost the same percentage across the board. Hes won at high % at CD(where he had a division this past spring), Gulfstream, Monmouth(where he has a division) NYRA tracks, and he shipped Offlee Wild to Suffolk to win the Mass Cap and Dutrow has won big races in Maryland(the General George AND the Barbara Fritchie), Pennsylvania (the PA derby), etc,
The argument that hes getting away with cheating in one specific jurisdiction is nonsense and holds absolutely no water whatsoever.
So genius you think hes fooling all these jurisdictions?

Yeah I am kind of tired about hearing that certain trainers drug and blah blah blah. Dutrow wins with his horses being in a detention barn.

Everything that's been said here about Silver Train and Lava Man is basically correct ... especially by Mike, as always ... and ...

... that's what distinguishes the truly great horses from the just-very-good ones ...

... they don't need to take their track with them ... they can run most any distance ... over most any type of track condition ... and still crush whoever has the courage to get into the gate with them.

Silver Train and Lava Man are top quality professional race horses ... but they don't scare anyone.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Everything that's been said here about Silver Train and Lava Man is basically correct ... especially by Mike, as always ... and ...

... that's what distinguishes the truly great horses from the just-very-good ones ...

... they don't need to take their track with them ... they can run most any distance ... over most any type of track condition ... and still crush whoever has the courage to get into the gate with them.

Silver Train and Lava Man are top quality professional race horses ... but they don't scare anyone.

Where did anyone call Silver Train and Lava Man TRULY GREAT?

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Where did anyone call Silver Train and Lava Man TRULY GREAT?

Ummm ... you see ...

... I was taking a small piece of datum ... and using it to make a more general point ... which you ... in your usual lovable way ... seem to have missed.

But now that I've explained it ... I'm sure the wattage has gone up in your thinking machine ... and you're most appreciative of my thoughts ... and of my sharing them with you.

Notice how Mike quickly picked up on it ... and expanded the thought. I encourage you to keep reading my posts ... and commenting on them. With a little practice ... some day you can be like Mike.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Where did anyone call Silver Train and Lava Man TRULY GREAT?

Don't you get it? When BB misstates something he did it intentionally to make a more general point. When someone else misstates something they are an idiot that needs to go to the Remedial Reading Comprehension section of the forum. Never ever doubt Bold Brooklynite.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Everything that's been said here about Silver Train and Lava Man is basically correct ... especially by Mike, as always ... and ...

... that's what distinguishes the truly great horses from the just-very-good ones ...

... they don't need to take their track with them ... they can run most any distance ... over most any type of track condition ... and still crush whoever has the courage to get into the gate with them.

Silver Train and Lava Man are top quality professional race horses ... but they don't scare anyone.

I agree, they are both great horses in their specified settings. Like Rock hard ten. But horses who win all over the place always get more respect. And horses who travel all over are bound to run into at least one surface(maybe two) that they can't handle.
I mean look at Bernadini, Gulf, Belmont, Pim, Saratoga. Enough said.
St Liam won at Bel, Gulf, Aqueduct, CD. Invasor has won in Uruguay, Pim, Bel, Spa. Horses like that always get first billing over specialists within certain venues. I think thats just common sense.