Swale....Winning Two Legs of The Triple Crown

blackthroatedwind · #1 09-28-2008, 12:38 AM

He walked on the lead in the Belmont.

He was a very good horse but was lost in the shadow of his stablemate Devil's Bag. As a 2YO he had a terrific rivalry with a Fred Hooper horse named Shuttle Jet. He won two Grade 1s as a 2YO and the Florida Derby prior to the Triple Crown.

He would have drowned Big Brown.

RollerDoc · #2 09-28-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He walked on the lead in the Belmont.

He was a very good horse but was lost in the shadow of his stablemate Devil's Bag. As a 2YO he had a terrific rivalry with a Fred Hooper horse named Shuttle Jet. He won two Grade 1s as a 2YO and the Florida Derby prior to the Triple Crown.

He would have drowned Big Brown.

Perhaps if Big Brown would have had a horse or stablemate to push him as a two year old and 3 yr. old, then maybe he would be more impressive to his doubters. On paper, in TCs I might give the slight edge to Swale since the Belmont is a more grueling race than the Preakness. Other than that, their accomplishments kind of mirror each other. I don't know how you can accurately say a horse from 25 years ago would have definitely "drowned" Big Brown. Maybe but it cannot be proven.

blackthroatedwind · #3 09-28-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Perhaps if Big Brown would have had a horse or stablemate to push him as a two year old and 3 yr. old, then maybe he would be more impressive to his doubters. On paper, in TCs I might give the slight edge to Swale since the Belmont is a more grueling race than the Preakness. Other than that, their accomplishments kind of mirror each other. I don't know how you can accurately say a horse from 25 years ago would have definitely "drowned" Big Brown. Maybe but it cannot be proven.

I can say it because I was around for all the good and great horses that have raced in the last 35 years. I spend my life trying to fairly, and accurately, judge racehorses' relative talents. Some are better than me....and many are worse.....but regardless of that I feel I am more than qualified to make these kinds of comparisons.

Take this for what it's worth, but if instead of being so defensive about any comment that doesn't imply that Big Brown is the second coming of Hindoo, you took the time to really research some top horses from the past ( buy the book Champions from DRF ) you might be surprised at what you discover.

RollerDoc · #4 09-28-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I can say it because I was around for all the good and great horses that have raced in the last 35 years. I spend my life trying to fairly, and accurately, judge racehorses' relative talents. Some are better than me....and many are worse.....but regardless of that I feel I am more than qualified to make these kinds of comparisons.

Take this for what it's worth, but if instead of being so defensive about any comment that doesn't imply that Big Brown is the second coming of Hindoo, you took the time to really research some top horses from the past ( buy the book Champions from DRF ) you might be surprised at what you discover.

Just because I am trying to defend Big Brown's record in 2008 and argue against some of the challenges against I feel I don't understand, I in know way think he is the best ever. Until i see him lose a race, I see no reason to not support his accomplishments this year.

I appreciate the book suggestion.

blackthroatedwind · #5 09-28-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

Just because I am trying to defend Big Brown's record in 2008 and argue against some of the challenges against I feel I don't understand, I in know way think he is the best ever. Until i see him lose a race, I see no reason to not support his accomplishments this year.

I appreciate the book suggestion.

I guess you slept through June 7th.

RolloTomasi · #6 09-28-2008, 05:54 PM

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

Danzig · #7 09-28-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

he was second.

RollerDoc · #8 09-28-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

For some reason, I think Tabasco Cat is my all-time favorite horse name.

Linny · #9 09-30-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

Chateaugay was 1963 I think.

Woody was high on Swale once Devil's Bag showed that he was not moving up at 3. Before that, though he was fond of Swale, he was convinced that Devil's Bag was the second coming of Man O' War. Swale was from a nice Claiborne family and (IMO) would likely have made a very good stallion.

Champions is the best racing book ever. Anyone who cares to debate the relative merits of horses of different eras MUST have read it. Like Andy, I was lucky to have seen horses like Secretariat, Forego, Ruffian, Slew, Bid etc. When you see horses that did amazing things like Forego's campaign in the fall of 1974 or Exceller and Slew in the Gold Cup or even Personal Ensign running much of her unbeaten career with steel pins in her leg, you have some perspective. I've read more racing history that I can recount and have gone over those PP's of horses from decades ago (20's, 30's etc) while reading books about the greats of each era. It's amazing what you find.
As for Big Brown, if Proudinsky had romped in the Joe Hirsch Turf Classic, I'd have been more impressed with him.

RollerDoc · #10 09-28-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I guess you slept through June 7th.

Wasn't certain, but could have looked it up. Off hand I counted Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed.

RollerDoc · #11 09-28-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I guess you slept through June 7th.

I was very much awake. He was pulled up, not out ran. He still lost the race but I haven't seen him lose yet where he entered the stretch.

I'm sure you want to slay me for that comment too.

Danzig · #12 09-28-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollerDoc

I was very much awake. He was pulled up, not out ran. He still lost the race but I haven't seen him lose yet where he entered the stretch.

I'm sure you want to slay me for that comment too.

you sound like les miles when he said the bayou bengals never lost in regulation last year.