3 year old filly Eclipse?

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

She won the Silverbulletday, a Grade 3, at Fair Grounds. The Davona Dale is run at Gulfstream.

Indian Blessing has won two Grade 1's,.....

The Prioress is a totally bogus G1, and the Test is questionable, too. And, yes, classic-distance animals will ALWAYS have the advantage over sprinters because that is the what being a Thoroughbred is all about - having the speed AND the stamina to keep going to win at a distance of ground in the best races. Pure sprinters, however talented, are lacking an important element in their makeup.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The Prioress is a totally bogus G1, and the Test is questionable, too. And, yes, classic-distance animals will ALWAYS have the advantage over sprinters because that is the what being a Thoroughbred is all about - having the speed AND the stamina to keep going to win at a distance of ground in the best races. Pure sprinters, however talented, are lacking an important element in their makeup.

The Test is a very important race. 7 furlongs is basically the one distance where routers and sprinters are in neutral territory. If you look at the last 30 Test winners, route fillies have won their fair share (Go For Wand, Versailles Treaty, Society Selection, November Snow, Lady's Secret, etc.). Its also produced 2 BC Sprint winners in Very Subtle and Safely Kept, as well as the dam of at least one BC Sprint winner (Blitey, who produced Dancing Spree who was also a Grade 1 winner at 10f). This latter factoid brings up another interesting characteristic of the Test, its produced several outstanding broodmares in its history.

[Betsy]

eh, I don't care that everyone knows that I love AP Indy. That doesn't bother me. It only bothers me (and not just when it comes to horse racing) when people think I can't be objective because of my rooting interest.

I think I was being objective in this case, but it's apparent that I was probably the only one who thought so. Thus, I haven't reposted in this thread. I just don't like banging my head against the wall, ,especially when posting on message boards is supposed to be relaxing and fun. It's not fun when I have to constantly explain myself.

[RolloTomasi]

I thought the logic was flawed from the get-go.

Trying to present Proud Spell's late season loss in the Cotillion (to a potential up-and-comer within the division no less) as though it was a defining race in her campaign is preposterous when the very same filly, one start earlier stuck it to a previously untested, could-be-any-kind Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with a race setup that favored the latter.

What we got in the stretch at Saratoga was the defining race for the division. One filly, all heart and willing to lay her body down pole after pole, and the other her perfect foil, of limitless talent and pedigree but lacking in true mettle (typical of the stallion and so many of his offspring).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with race setup that favored the latter.

I have to disagree big time on the race setup favoring Music Note in the Alabama.

I thought Little Belle was crawling on an unpressured lead - and was clearly the setup horse in there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I have to disagree big time on the race setup favoring Music Note in the Alabama.

I thought Little Belle was crawling on an unpressured lead - and was clearly the setup horse in there.

Little Belle (Music Note's stablemate as you know) did get an upressured lead, which, when the running really started gave Proud Spell a little more work to do to establish a clear lead at the top of the stretch.

Music Note got to bide her time and move for the front as she pleased, just as she did in the CCA Oaks. Only this time, instead of rocketing away past the hopeless front markers, she cruised up alongside a game racehorse that she clearly had the better of, got looked in the eye, and gave it up.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I came away with a different impression of that race than you did.

I've never been a believer that trailing the field through soft fractions and having to come around was an advantage.

I didn't think it was a conclusive win at all for PS - and certainly MN's win in their prior meeting was very inconclusive because of real bad trips... where I thought the Alabama was just a race where the bum Little Belle had the dreamiest of trips and PS had a slight tactical advantage on MN.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Little Belle (Music Note's stablemate as you know) did get an upressured lead, which, when the running really started gave Proud Spell a little more work to do to establish a clear lead at the p of the stretch.

Music Note got to bide her time and move for the front as she pleased, just as she did in the CCA Oaks. Only this time, instead of rocketing away past the hopeless front markers, she cruised up alongside a game racehorse that she clearly had the better of, got looked in the eye, and gave it up.

She gave it up? LOL She didn't spit the bit and collapse - Music Note, untested to this point in her brief career, was just outgamed. She wasn't outclassed and she certainly didn't call it quits. This is like those comments about Bernardini in the BC Classic a few years ago. Finishing 2nd, even a good second, does not mean that you have no heart.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I thought the logic was flawed from the get-go.

Trying to present Proud Spell's late season loss in the Cotillion (to a potential up-and-comer within the division no less) as though it was a defining race in her campaign is preposterous when the very same filly, one start earlier stuck it to a previously untested, could-be-any-kind Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with a race setup that favored the latter.

What we got in the stretch at Saratoga was the defining race for the division. One filly, all heart and willing to lay her body down pole after pole, and the other her perfect foil, of limitless talent and pedigree but lacking in true mettle (typical of the stallion and so many of his offspring).

How exactly did Music Note get a perfect set up in the Alabama ? I thought Castellano rode her terribly that day - the pace was very soft and he kept her 5 or so lengths off the lead. She has a very good turn of foot and should have been kept closer.

I don't know why you think Music Note has no heart or why Indy's offspring in general don't, but I'm not even going to ask you about that.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Betsy

How exactly did Music Note get a perfect set up in the Alabama ? I thought Castellano rode her terribly that day - the pace was very soft and he kept her 5 or so lengths off the lead. She has a very good turn of foot and should have been kept closer.

Wasn't she merely a length away from Proud Spell for most of the backstretch, drafting in behind in the garden spot, much as a sharp-witted cyclist would?

Seriously, though, in terms of pace, I agree that she wasn't the beneficiary. By race setup I meant more that her stablemate, Little Belle, who is at least of listed stake calibur, was sent out to basically tease Proud Spell (perhaps baiting that one into dueling or a premature move to the lead). Meanwhile, Music Note could just stalk Proud Spell (her only real rival) and pounce when necessary. All this with the race contested at 10f, perhaps the biggest advantage any entrant in the race enjoyed.

Certainly she's not outclassed by Proud Spell and maybe, having been untested up to that point, she will be more "battle hardened" next time she locks horns with a comparable rival.

However, replaying the Alabama just now I did kind of overstate how easily she cruised up to Proud Spell at the 1/8th pole. Seems like she might have that other AP Indy flaw we've seen in some of his other horses (most notably AP Adventure). When the real running started around the far turn, Music Note got left about 2 lengths by Proud Spell despite being under a bit of a drive from Castellano. Only once they straightened up did it look like she would inhale Proud Spell. Perhaps that's what took some of the edge off her finish.

She might be, like Easy Goer, a Belmont horse.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Wasn't she merely a length away from Proud Spell for most of the backstretch, drafting in behind in the garden spot, much as a sharp-witted cyclist would?

Seriously, though, in terms of pace, I agree that she wasn't the beneficiary. By race setup I meant more that her stablemate, Little Belle, who is at least of listed stake calibur, was sent out to basically tease Proud Spell (perhaps baiting that one into dueling or a premature move to the lead). Meanwhile, Music Note could just stalk Proud Spell (her only real rival) and pounce when necessary. All this with the race contested at 10f, perhaps the biggest advantage any entrant in the race enjoyed.

Certainly she's not outclassed by Proud Spell and maybe, having been untested up to that point, she will be more "battle hardened" next time she locks horns with a comparable rival.

However, replaying the Alabama just now I did kind of overstate how easily she cruised up to Proud Spell at the 1/8th pole. Seems like she might have that other AP Indy flaw we've seen in some of his other horses (most notably AP Adventure). When the real running started around the far turn, Music Note got left about 2 lengths by Proud Spell despite being under a bit of a drive from Castellano. Only once they straightened up did it look like she would inhale Proud Spell. Perhaps that's what took some of the edge off her finish.

She might be, like Easy Goer, a Belmont horse.

Again, I'm going to bypass your comments about all of AP Indy's flaws as a sire because I just don't know where you are coming from here. The Alabama was not MN's best race, IMO and in the opinion of her connections. In this race, she didn't cruise up as she normally (and willingly does - do not compare her to AP Adventure, who was no good) does. She had to work a bit. This was in part because her CCA apparently took something out of her (her workout at Greentree center in Saratoga wasn't that good and you'll note that I posted about that here at the time; also, read the Blood Horse's recap of the Gazelle. They wanted Javier to wrap up on the filly because he had let her run a huge race in the Oaks and that took some starch out of her in the Alabama).

I've never understood why MN or any horse gets penalized by fans for having some sort of "advantage" at a greater distance. I can understand if one horse is carring 10 lbs fewer than another, but in this case, any advantage MN has is genetic. In any case, if LB was supposed to be some sort of rabbit, she (or rather Maragh, her jock) did a lousy job. Instead of setting racehorse fractions (I'm not asking for blazing, just even ordinary), he decided to strangle LB and set trotting horse fractions.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

But,I'd love to see the Dutrow horse replicate her last 2 somewhere other than Delaware or Philadelphia. I won't hold my breath.

Does Tony Dutrow do well in NY? I'm not sure. Either way, I have a feeling a lot of Mercedes Stable horses will be abandoning CA for the East Coast in the next few months, if they haven't come already.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I actually thought you were being objective. Now, that said I thought the question BTW asked was a fair one. And when you seemed to get upset about it, I kind of changed my mind. There's nothing wrong with not being objective when it comes to something you love. But, if you are going to make it obvious that you are a fan of certain horses because of their sire. It's only natural for people to assume when you discuss such horses, that you are being a bit biased.

Either way, nothing to get too upset about. I don't think anyone was trying to be rude or mean. Just trying to see if the sires were reversed, if you would still feel the same way. I actually think Music Note is better. But they are both very nice fillies and as a fan of racing was impressed with the show that put on in the Alabama.

I didn't think Andy was being rude at all, nor was anyone else. I guess I'm so used to having to defend myself that I got my back up. I'd like to think that I would feel the same way if the sires were reversed. I realize the KY Oaks/Alabama double is hard to beat, but Music Note did beat PS and I don't think it's fair to hold PS's bad trip against her and assume that PS would have won. Flute won the KY Oaks and Alabama a few years back and did not get the title. She didn't run that well in finishing 2nd to Exogenous in the Gazelle and then I believe she ran poorly in the Beldame. In this case, Proud Spell has other wins on her resume this year besides those two races, so obviously she'd be a worthy champion, but she just ran poorly in the Cotillion against horses she was supposed to beat handily. Music Note did lose to PS, but she ran well in that race (I was upset by a devastating nose loss immediately after that race and I was disappointed in her. I've come to a different conclusion now).

[CSC]

The Eclispe will probably be decided at the Breeders Cup, alot of the fillies mentioned here all have good points to be chosen, if ever the concept of the BC was a good one it is for this division, I certainly couldn't decide right now.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

The Eclispe will probably be decided at the Breeders Cup, alot of the fillies mentioned here all have good points to be chosen, if ever the concept of the BC was a good one it is for this division, I certainly couldn't decide right now.

in most years, you would be correct, the bcd would decide. but this year of course will be different, and some of the fillies and mares at the top of their division may not even run. and if they do run, but falter on an unfamiliar surface......ought to be interesting.