Cards at Saratoga

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I think the rest of the meet has the potential to be great with some good weather. There's so many horses that want to get in one or two races it should be full as well as quality.

Anyone here Steve say they may run the last Tuesday (26th) to make up races? Bonus Day!

Spyder

That would be a colossal mistake. The horse population is already going to be beat up by running 10-11 race cards as NYRA has been doing to artificially prevent the numbers from being not as dismal. Running 13 straight days would probably result in several brutal cards from a quality perspective, and God knows what it would do to the early part of the Belmont fall meet.

[the_fat_man]

Absolutely BRUTALLY MISMANAGED meet --- at just about every level. And this has nothing to do with the weather.

I'm ahead here, and I was ahead at GP last winter. But I'd never focus on GP again and the same applies to SAR. There are much better OFF track options than SAR.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Absolutely BRUTALLY MISMANAGED meet --- at just about every level. And this has nothing to do with the weather.

I'm ahead here, and I was ahead at GP last winter. But I'd never focus on GP again and the same applies to SAR. There are much better OFF track options than SAR.

What has been done wrong other than the horrifically bad weather?

[Gander]

Originally Posted by philcski

What has been done wrong other than the horrifically bad weather?

Seems like they added more time between races, in addition to adding a race a day. I get the reason why (to buy more food & beer) but I dont think its really right. Its more annoying than anything else, especially with the fluff that has been added to the cards. You may like something in the 4th, and the 5th through 7th will be garbage, so you are sitting around for 2 hours.

Anyone try "Restaurants Row"? I havent but have heard pretty good reviews.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Gander

Seems like they added more time between races, in addition to adding a race a day. I get the reason why (to buy more food & beer) but I dont think its really right. Its more annoying than anything else, especially with the fluff that has been added to the cards. You may like something in the 4th, and the 5th through 7th will be garbage, so you are sitting around for 2 hours.

Anyone try "Restaurants Row"? I havent but have heard pretty good reviews.

I could think of worse things to do than stick it out on a Saturday afternoon through 11 races.

The restaurant row I think was a good addition this year, it's nice to have options. I usually pack snacks myself, but it was nice to be able to grab a warm turkey sandwich with melted brie. It was pretty good.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by philcski

What has been done wrong other than the horrifically bad weather?

What's wrong is that MUCHO time of handicappers (particularly those focusing almost exclusively on turf) has been wasted with all the OFF the TURF races. This would be excusable IF there were only ONE turf course. As there are TWO turf courses, NYRA needs to shelve the old way of doing things and sacrifice one of those courses for wet days. It's not like they'll need BOTH turf courses for the entire year. Same applies to BEL.

And, the distance incentive has been a BUST, IMO. Do we really need $70k maiden route races? How about we use that EXTRA cash in writing some BETTER races for BETTER horses. Seems to me, the quality of horses is down this year as there are other options for them (at comparable purses).

While the quality of the fields doesn't really affect my handicapping, as I know the turf horses well and I've pretty much accepted that there just won't be as many quality turf races in NY anymore, I do, every so often, want to see a nice competitive turf race. If I wanted CLAIMERS, I'd focus on DEL, CNL, Maryland, and (in a lesser sense) AP and MTH.

I realize that SAR offers a nice ON TRACK experience. For the OFF track player, however, it's very much an ordinary (even subpar) one.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

What's wrong is that MUCHO time of handicappers (particularly those focusing almost exclusively on turf) has been wasted with all the OFF the TURF races. This would be excusable IF there were only ONE turf course. As there are TWO turf courses, NYRA needs to shelve the old way of doing things and sacrifice one of those courses for wet days. It's not like they'll need BOTH turf courses for the entire year. Same applies to BEL.

And, the distance incentive has been a BUST, IMO. Do we really need $70k maiden route races? How about we use that EXTRA cash in writing some BETTER races for BETTER horses. Seems to me, the quality of horses is down this year as there are other options for them (at comparable purses).

While the quality of the fields doesn't really affect my handicapping, as I know the turf horses well and I've pretty much accepted that there just won't be as many quality turf races in NY anymore, I do, every so often, want to see a nice competitive turf race. If I wanted CLAIMERS, I'd focus on DEL, CNL, Maryland, and (in a lesser sense) AP and MTH.

I realize that SAR offers a nice ON TRACK experience. For the OFF track player, however, it's very much an ordinary (even subpar) one.

Where are there better horses?

[blackthroatedwind]

Sacrifice one of the courses in bad weather?

Come on, you're smarter than that. Honestly.

[Linny]

The problem is that the better races DONT FILL. The trainers want to run their allowance stock every 6 weeks so those races don't go.
The additional money in overnight races has hurt the stakes program though. A filly like Nehantic Cat is through her NY bred conditions yet instead of going in the Yaddo against multiple stakes winners, Tagg had the option to run for and $85k purse on Wed against NW1x fillies. Purse for Yaddo against filies like Rewrite, $100K or $60k to winner, before expenses. Purse for allowance $85k or $51k. I know $9k is alot of money but for the difference in the expected quality of the fields, it's a no brainer, especially after paying trainer/rider fees etc.
PJ is giving trainers too many options. Why card a 9f "overnight" stakes 30 minutes before the Jim Dandy with the same conditions as the G2? In the example above, if the allowance that Nehantic Cat won had a $50k purse, she might have gone for the stakes.
A few months ago he carded an overnight sprint for NYB fillies with a $85k purse. The following day was an open overnight for fillies with the same purse. The open race didn't fill. Why not just card the open and force the trainers of good NYB's to run in it. Instead they got a short field of NYB mares. Makes no sense...

[parsixfarms]

In many respects, the racing office is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation on the overnight stakes program. My sense is that a few years ago, several NW2x or NW3X allowance-type horses were shipping to places like Monmouth or Delaware to run in overnight/$70K stakes races. To keep them at home, NYRA bolstered its own overnight program. One of the unforeseen consequences is that, given the state of racing today, it has cannibalized the overnight allowance program (especially with 3YO races, where the stakes are glorified NW1/2X-type races). But at least the horses are generally staying home now. Should there be a greater purse difference between the allowance/overnight stakes and the "featured" stakes races? Probably.

Two other thoughts: I am not a fan of the extra races that NYRA is carding, especially with the 6 day race week. (I almost feel like I'm at Calder or Gulfstream.) Aside from taxing the horse population (and leading to lesser quality fields being needed), I think it taxes the fans as well. There's something about being able to leave the track at a reasonable hour. Combined with an average of 33 minutes between races (about 1-2 minutes per race additional this year), it's tough. Approximate post for Thursday's 10th race is 6:04 PM. That's not good. In the past, that race, even on a weekend, would go off around 5:45 PM.

Finally, I'm also perplexed by the positioning of the stakes races on the cards. I understand that, when there is a short field in the given race, they may want to move it to get it out of the late pic-4 or pic-6. However, the positioning of the stakes races this past Sunday was downright baffling. The Yaddo was the fourth race of the day, while the West Point (an excellent betting race with a full field) was the seventh race on an 11 race card. Meanwhile, the next sequence of races consisted of a $35K NW2L claimer for fillies at 5.5F, an NY-bred NW2X and an open NW1X allowance.

[Quiet Chris]

The difficulty of the races that fill at Saratoga are not worth the extra few thousand. Trainers realize they are much better off going to Delaware of Monmouth.

Training racehorses has become a game of percentages. You don't get good win and in the money percentages running in tough fields. You go where the softer fields are.

Saratoga is slowly becoming stakes races with some NY bred races as filler.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

What's wrong is that MUCHO time of handicappers (particularly those focusing almost exclusively on turf) has been wasted with all the OFF the TURF races. This would be excusable IF there were only ONE turf course. As there are TWO turf courses, NYRA needs to shelve the old way of doing things and sacrifice one of those courses for wet days. It's not like they'll need BOTH turf courses for the entire year. Same applies to BEL.

And, the distance incentive has been a BUST, IMO. Do we really need $70k maiden route races? How about we use that EXTRA cash in writing some BETTER races for BETTER horses. Seems to me, the quality of horses is down this year as there are other options for them (at comparable purses).

While the quality of the fields doesn't really affect my handicapping, as I know the turf horses well and I've pretty much accepted that there just won't be as many quality turf races in NY anymore, I do, every so often, want to see a nice competitive turf race. If I wanted CLAIMERS, I'd focus on DEL, CNL, Maryland, and (in a lesser sense) AP and MTH.

I realize that SAR offers a nice ON TRACK experience. For the OFF track player, however, it's very much an ordinary (even subpar) one.

You're out of your mind. Sacrifice one of the turf courses?? Even if they did, how is handicapping running in a bog any fun? Do you realize how much rain there has been up there over the past three weeks?

The distance incentive has NOT been a bust, IMO. How many would have been in the Unbridled's Heart race a couple Saturdays ago if the purse incentive was not there? It would have been a 5-6 horse field with a heavy favorite, not exactly a fun gambling experience.

There's a couple things I've had an issue with. (1) Writing races that cannabalize their own feature events (i.e., the race before the Jim Dandy and the 3YO filly sprint stake on Test day.) (2) Going to the California-style layout of the races, putting the shorter fields in the beginning of the day, in an attempt to induce pick-6 carryovers (which given the moderate size of the pick 6 pools relative to CA, isn't worth it).

As for the quality horses thing... they're just not out there. Find me a horse that is running at another meet that would normally be running in NY.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by philcski

You're out of your mind. Sacrifice one of the turf courses?? Even if they did, how is handicapping running in a bog any fun? Do you realize how much rain there has been up there over the past three weeks?

The distance incentive has NOT been a bust, IMO. How many would have been in the Unbridled's Heart race a couple Saturdays ago if the purse incentive was not there? It would have been a 5-6 horse field with a heavy favorite, not exactly a fun gambling experience.

There's a couple things I've had an issue with. (1) Writing races that cannabalize their own feature events (i.e., the race before the Jim Dandy and the 3YO filly sprint stake on Test day.) (2) Going to the California-style layout of the races, putting the shorter fields in the beginning of the day, in an attempt to induce pick-6 carryovers (which given the moderate size of the pick 6 pools relative to CA, isn't worth it).

As for the quality horses thing... they're just not out there. Find me a horse that is running at another meet that would normally be running in NY.

Even if they hadn't carded that filly stake, with the way horses are managed now, it's doubtful many of them would have wanted to face Indian Blessing.

[blackthroatedwind]

Just to clarify some confusion....


Not one horse in the Allowance before the Jim Dandy was going to run in the Jim Dandy ( which PJ knew ) and as a consequence we now have two new starters, and contenders, for the Travers.


If this was a mistake on his part he should continue screwing things up.