Which horses were truly great?

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Danzig

genuine risk belongs too. no filly has had a better tc then her, a win and two seconds-hell, that's better than alydars record in the classics!

She wasn't even the best 3yo filly of her year. Bold n' Determined beat her the only time they met and won over their elders, which GR didn't do. Look at her record.

1977 BOLD 'N DETERMINED,B,f,Bold And Brave 3 20 16 2 0 949,599
At 2 Won Oak Leaf S. -G2 (100,000)
At 3 Won Fantasy S. -G1 (150,000), Spinster S. -G1 (150,000), Coaching
Club American Oaks -G1 (125,000), Santa Susana S. -G1 (100,000),
Kentucky Oaks -G1 (100,000), Acorn S. -G1 (75,000), Maskette S. -G2 (75,000), Pasadena S. (50,000), 2nd Mother Goose S. -G1 (100,000)
At 4 Won Apple Blossom H. -G2 (200,000), Bewitch S. (50,000), 2nd La Brea

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

But Nashua won more than 2/3 of his races. Had Exterminator had a nice run in his 50 wins and then racked up a bunch of losses late in his career then he'd have a better excuse for his 50 losses. But he didn't.

Exterminator ran until he was 10, long past his best years. Without modern analgesics, his old joints couldn't move him as fast as they had and his form nosedived. (This is why I still can't put John Henry in the same category as Exterminator, Kelso and Native Diver - he got bute for his elderly aches and pains.)

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

She wasn't even the best 3yo filly of her year. Bold n' Determined beat her the only time they met and won over their elders, which GR didn't do. Look at her record.
1977 BOLD 'N DETERMINED,B,f,Bold And Brave 3 20 16 2 0 949,599
At 2 Won Oak Leaf S. -G2 (100,000)
At 3 Won Fantasy S. -G1 (150,000), Spinster S. -G1 (150,000), Coaching
Club American Oaks -G1 (125,000), Santa Susana S. -G1 (100,000),
Kentucky Oaks -G1 (100,000), Acorn S. -G1 (75,000), Maskette S. -G2 (75,000), Pasadena S. (50,000), 2nd Mother Goose S. -G1 (100,000)
At 4 Won Apple Blossom H. -G2 (200,000), Bewitch S. (50,000), 2nd La Brea

genuine risk beat the older misty gallore in the ruffian.

as for the above, in which of those races BnD beat males? and finish second and third three other times vs males? that was four grade one, classic races that risk took part in, with a third, a first in the derby, and then second in the other two legs.


bold n determined only won by a nose when she beat risk-she passed risk in the stretch, and was ahead by about half a length when risk started coming back at her, only to run out of stretch-and risk was also making her first start off a 13 week layoff.

[King Glorious]

I won't get into who I think was great or who wasn't. I will just say this.......if there is a debate to be had over a horse, he probably doesn't belong on that list. If I say Spectacular Bid, he's agreed upon by 99%. If I say Secretariat, he's agreed upon by 99%. The no debate horses are the only ones that belong on the list. The ones that you have to put their records out there and state their cases, probably not.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

There is no doubt of that, just like Scottie Pippen was a heck of a basketball player. But neither are at that elite level.

not to change the subject, but Chuck Daly said Pippen was the 2nd best player on the 1992 Dream Team... granted Bird and Magic were past their "prime" but that's still a pretty strong statement.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I won't get into who I think was great or who wasn't. I will just say this.......if there is a debate to be had over a horse, he probably doesn't belong on that list. If I say Spectacular Bid, he's agreed upon by 99%. If I say Secretariat, he's agreed upon by 99%. The no debate horses are the only ones that belong on the list. The ones that you have to put their records out there and state their cases, probably not.

i only went into more detail to correct pedigree anns assertion that genuine risk didn't face and defeat older horses. i don't know what more genuine risk could have done, she did everything that is usually asked of a filly to define greatness.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by smuthg

not to change the subject, but Chuck Daly said Pippen was the 2nd best player on the 1992 Dream Team... granted Bird and Magic were past their "prime" but that's still a pretty strong statement.

i live 8 miles outside of hamburg, pippens hometown. he warmed the bench in high school, definitely wasn't precocious!

[Dr.SwineSmeller]

Add Northern Dancer. North American by way of Canada. His 14-2-2 record in 18 lifetime starts is strong enough, but the fact that he is the undisputed top breeder of all time warrants a place on the all time greats list. JMO

[Pedigree Ann]

Danzig, let's agree that Genuine Risk and Bold n' Determined were the two best 3yo fillies of 1980 and among the 3 best 3yos period. (Temperence Hill was the champion, developed later, and beat GR in the Belmont. The colts directly behind GR in the Derby were hardly world-beaters - Rumbo and Jaklin Klugman, both G2 SWs and nice horses, but nothing special.) When they met head-to-head it was in Bold n' Determined's better distance range (7-9f) and not Genuine Risk's (9f-10f) so BnD won.

[eajinabi]

The greatest horse was that horse in the Sufolk 4th race today who unseated his rider during the race, jumped the rail, left the track and was found across the street at the Stop N Go.

[westcoastinvader]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

But Nashua won more than 2/3 of his races. Had Exterminator had a nice run in his 50 wins and then racked up a bunch of losses late in his career then he'd have a better excuse for his 50 losses. But he didn't.

And as I recall, Nashua was the all time leading $$ winner for a great number of years.

I think from retirement, until Spectacular Bid passed him.

If my memory is correct, I think that's a metric that should put Nashua in the group, for certain.

And Spectacular Bid is certainly on my list with 26 wins, 2 places and a show in 30 starts.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

Chuck - that is "new york's Easy Goer"

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

Chuck - that is "new york's Easy Goer"

The great Marshall Cassidy

[gales0678]

still can't believe patient Pat Day eneded up on the inside of sunday silence in the preakness and let him get away in the BCC - not 2 of his best days

[miraja2]

So what was his excuse in the Derby again?
I know there is one, but there are so many BS excuses to keep straight when it comes to Easy Goer's defeats to Sunday Silence, that sometimes I can't keep them all straight.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Skip Away was the best horse of the 90's. Of course he was great. He faced real brilliant competiton, ran many huge performances, and was around from start to finish.

Ghostzapper was the best horse of this decade so far - because he was so lightly raced it might not be as easy to call him great but he was. I don't think you could call a horse great as lightly raced as he was had he run in a different era.

I thought Discreet Cat was better? lol

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by miraja2

So what was his excuse in the Derby again?
I know there is one, but there are so many BS excuses to keep straight when it comes to Easy Goer's defeats to Sunday Silence, that sometimes I can't keep them all straight.

.... no ****, can u imagine if E.G was a west coast horse and they cried about every loss to S.S.........

[gales0678]

he got beat fair and square in the derby, day cost him the preakness and bcc in my opinion

[Gander]

Sunday Silence was the better horse. Gales is always bias when it comes to NY teams and horses. Hes a smart man but loses his rational side while pimping anything NY.

[gales0678]

come on timmy , watch the races again

day gets easy goer trapped down on the rail , watch the replays , he losses by a nose and never gets his full stride going on the last 1/16 , if day is outside and not pinned on the rail he wins for fun , you gotta be kidding me that you think he wasn't better