Which horses were truly great?

Antitrust32 · #1 08-06-2008, 02:32 PM

Personal Ensign HAS to be on the list.

SniperSB23 · #2 08-06-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Personal Ensign HAS to be on the list.

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

Antitrust32 · #3 08-06-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

so she cant be on the list because she didnt run against males?

SniperSB23 · #4 08-06-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

so she cant be on the list because she didnt run against males?

She did and beat them in the Whitney. I just think that if you just treat them all as horses and ignore their sex she wouldn't be in that top tier.

Antitrust32 · #5 08-06-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

She did and beat them in the Whitney. I just think that if you just treat them all as horses and ignore their sex she wouldn't be in that top tier.

I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??

SniperSB23 · #6 08-06-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??

If I open it up to great for a filly then we get great for a sprinter and so on until someone is naming the fastest female turf sprinter of all time as a great. Look at the bloodhorse top 100, the highest female was 35th. This is the same concept.

Danzig · #7 08-06-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I think it is ridiculous to ignore their sex. She would have to be on that list. also Ruffian, Lady's Secret and a few others... like maybe Regret?

The way you describe... Billy Jean King couldnt be an "elite" tennis player because she couldnt have beat Arthur Ashe or Pete Sampras??

genuine risk belongs too. no filly has had a better tc then her, a win and two seconds-hell, that's better than alydars record in the classics!

Pedigree Ann · #8 08-09-2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

genuine risk belongs too. no filly has had a better tc then her, a win and two seconds-hell, that's better than alydars record in the classics!

She wasn't even the best 3yo filly of her year. Bold n' Determined beat her the only time they met and won over their elders, which GR didn't do. Look at her record.

1977 BOLD 'N DETERMINED,B,f,Bold And Brave 3 20 16 2 0 949,599
At 2 Won Oak Leaf S. -G2 (100,000)
At 3 Won Fantasy S. -G1 (150,000), Spinster S. -G1 (150,000), Coaching
Club American Oaks -G1 (125,000), Santa Susana S. -G1 (100,000),
Kentucky Oaks -G1 (100,000), Acorn S. -G1 (75,000), Maskette S. -G2 (75,000), Pasadena S. (50,000), 2nd Mother Goose S. -G1 (100,000)
At 4 Won Apple Blossom H. -G2 (200,000), Bewitch S. (50,000), 2nd La Brea

Antitrust32 · #9 08-06-2008, 02:41 PM

Speaking of Sniper... do you have any fillies and mares on your list?? I dont know who Hindoo, Kingston, and Salvator are but I know in the 1900's and 2000's you did not include any filly or mare..

I think that is WAY off...

SniperSB23 · #10 08-06-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Speaking of Sniper... do you have any fillies and mares on your list?? I dont know who Hindoo, Kingston, and Salvator are but I know in the 1900's and 2000's you did not include any filly or mare..

I think that is WAY off...

No, cause like I said I'm not counting a horse that is regarded as great for a filly. Male horses are just plain faster than female horses on average so it isn't surprising that the best of all time are males.

Cannon Shell · #11 08-06-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

its hard to win 13 in a row regardless of competition

Danzig · #12 08-06-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Let me ask you this? How many males in the history of this sport would have gone 13 for 13 if allowed to run in the same 13 races as Personal Ensign? I think a lot more than the 22 horses I listed. If she were male would she be regarded as highly or is she so highly regarded because she was so great for a filly?

but keep in mind that she did beat a fellow eclipse award winner (gulch) and won most of those races after coming back from a broken leg. she wasn't just a filly-most fillies don't get as much respect as they should because they don't run in open races, but personal ensign did just that. for a horse to win out at two is something anyway, since they're just learning.
also, ruffian was never headed til she lost, and that was her first time vs males-well, a male. but she blew out the clock as well as her competition.

i think that we all start adding too many horses to the 'great' list. there really are a few who have transcended time-man o war, secretariat, dr fager. so when you start mentioning skip away-does he belong with those three?
maybe not, but he was a great horse.

Dunbar · #13 08-07-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Personal Ensign HAS to be on the list.

I'd agree if she had run in the Classic that year and beaten Alysheba.

By Sniper's original definition, it's not enough to be a great filly to make his list.

--Dunbar

SlewsMyHero · #14 08-07-2008, 01:29 PM

A horse that rarely gets mentioned when talking about all time greats has these credentials:

Lifetime record 46 starts 20 - 10 - 4

2 Time Grade I winner at 1 1/4 miles

Multiple Grade I wins at 1 mile to 1 1/8 miles

A Stakes winner on Grass

and

A Breeders' Cup Sprint Winner

There aren't too many that are this versatile.

The horse's name was Precisionist.