So just WHO targets and kills civilians??

[SentToStud]

Terrorists and extremists exist in all ME nations. Take a look at the Kahn Kahane Chai and The Jewish Front groups in Israel, just to name a couple.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Terrorists and extremists exist in all ME nations. Take a look at the Kahn Kahane Chai and The Jewish Front groups in Israel, just to name a couple.

Israel had a Prime Minister killed by a fanatical right wing member. Nobody ever said Israel or the US was absolutely clean of homegrown terrorists. Timothy McVea...

But honestly. By bringing up abberations in order to try and make a fair comparison between the State of Israel and Hezbollah is regrettable and disingenuous. Does Hezbollah let Jewish members of its "government" shout down an act during a "Knisset" (sp?) meeting?
Get real. There is no comparison on the whole. Anyone can pick individual events and use them to represent the whole. It is a very easy trick, but it is not helpful in searching for what really is happening.

What scares me is when a large group starts to proclaim that it is under seige and then perpetuates violent acts TARGETING TOTALLY INNOCENT PEOPLE claiming that God is on its side. And the moderate members of the so called down-trodden groups stop speaking because they are scared they will meet a similar fate or because they start believing. This my good friends of the board reminds me of a little party that got started in the 1930's in Germany and spread like wildfire. The movement of radical Islamic groups that has continue to rise and the MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS start backing down is very much like facist movements that we have seen in the past.
1. We got screwed
2. God is on our side (cant argue with that)
3. Kill in the name of God, sacrifice yourself to kill infidels
4. The majority of sane members of this group step aside and join.

This is a very scary trend that took total destruction of said group in the past. Total destruction. Not little incursions and constantly backing off because the problem is too big. This is very very frightening and any sane minded individuals should recognize this as a recipe for disaster.

If any of you have read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich you know the parallels I am talking about. It is absolutely chilling.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Israel had a Prime Minister killed by a fanatical right wing member. Nobody ever said Israel or the US was absolutely clean of homegrown terrorists. Timothy McVea...

But honestly. By bringing up abberations in order to try and make a fair comparison between the State of Israel and Hezbollah is regrettable and disingenuous. Does Hezbollah let Jewish members of its "government" shout down an act during a "Knisset" (sp?) meeting?
Get real. There is no comparison on the whole. Anyone can pick individual events and use them to represent the whole. It is a very easy trick, but it is not helpful in searching for what really is happening.

What scares me is when a large group starts to proclaim that it is under seige and then perpetuates violent acts TARGETING TOTALLY INNOCENT PEOPLE claiming that God is on its side. And the moderate members of the so called down-trodden groups stop speaking because they are scared they will meet a similar fate or because they start believing. This my good friends of the board reminds me of a little party that got started in the 1930's in Germany and spread like wildfire. The movement of radical Islamic groups that has continue to rise and the MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS start backing down is very much like facist movements that we have seen in the past.
1. We got screwed
2. God is on our side (cant argue with that)
3. Kill in the name of God, sacrifice yourself to kill infidels
4. The majority of sane members of this group step aside and join.

This is a very scary trend that took total destruction of said group in the past. Total destruction. Not little incursions and constantly backing off because the problem is too big. This is very very frightening and any sane minded individuals should recognize this as a recipe for disaster.

Well, you do hold the majority viewpoint. But, disingenous or regretable as it may seem to you, I think a lot of people feel there is way more to it.

Those MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS you refer to have now lived their adult lives seeing the well spoken tones of reasonable people approach as flawed, failed and fruitless.

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.

So, yeah, that along with the Palestinian issue has the moderate Arabs, leaders or otherwise, having very good reason to hold the West in distrust and this is where the appeal of the edgier and worse (you call it what you want, that's ok) Islamic factions gain traction.

You could likely go on at length about how none of this rationalizes terrroists or behavior that supports terrorist groups and you'd be right. That does not, however, change the game. The game gets changed by starting to understand and appreciate how and why adversaries act as they do.

The U.S. now is seen by Arabs as so strongly Pro-Israeli / Anti-Arab that there is not a chance in hell that America CAN be a mediating leader in the region.

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Well, you do hold the majority viewpoint. But, disingenous or regretable as it may seem to you, I think a lot of people feel there is way more to it.

Those MODERATE ISLAMIC LEADERS you refer to have now lived their adult lives seeing the well spoken tones of reasonable people approach as flawed, failed and fruitless.

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.

So, yeah, that along with the Palestinian issue has the moderate Arabs, leaders or otherwise, having very good reason to hold the West in distrust and this is where the appeal of the edgier and worse (you call it what you want, that's ok) Islamic factions gain traction.

You could likely go on at length about how none of this rationalizes terrroists or behavior that supports terrorist groups and you'd be right. That does not, however, change the game. The game gets changed by starting to understand and appreciate how and why adversaries act as they do.

The U.S. now is seen by Arabs as so strongly Pro-Israeli / Anti-Arab that there is not a chance in hell that America CAN be a mediating leader in the region.

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s

I guess at some point I have to ask..."so what?"
I agree that we must attempt to find peaceful solutions...every life lost is tragic but we cannot go around hanging our heads cause some folks don't like us! We have made plenty of mistakes...so what? The Israelis aren't perfect...so what? We must do the right thing regardless of how it plays in the Arab world...what is the alternative? Throw Israel to the wolves...stand back and allow the terrorists to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East? Enough of the hand-wringing and self-flagellation! The terrorists stop killing innocent folks or we wipe them out, countries stop supporting them or get more than their feelings hurt! I refuse to insert my head up my butt and pretend that the only bad people in the world are George Bush and the Israelis!

Originally Posted by SentToStud

pgardn, you told me to get real, so I will. Do you know how the Iraqis refer to U.S. soldiers? They refer to them as The Jews. I don't care for the connotation but I don't think that's the effect we were going for. That's as real as I can get.

I agree with you that this is indeed very, very serious.

regards,
-s2s

That is exactly the type of statement I see as so dangerous. Anyone who is against you is a dog. A Jew. The extremists make the other side out to be evil and God has called ONE to punish them and the masses BELIEVE. The Islamic extremists that hold this view are to be feared. I do not believe the majority of Muslims feel this way. But they are doing absolutely nothing to stop this tide and then good people become Nazi like. There is not a person on this board who could ever claim that if they lived in Germany in the 1930's that they would not have been swayed, good people swayed. The deafening silence that meet Iran's president when he claimed that Israel should not exist is shocking. This man stepped out on the limb to become a leader of this movement and said it, no one stood against him. He GAINED standing in the Islamic world. People that are clearly terrorists are becoming HERO'S.

If there is anyone that does not find this absolutelty chilling... We can continue to talk about how this sort of unity is brought about, just like people look at the horrible state the Germans were in after WWI and how the population was ripe for this type of behavior. We can continue to talk about how the current US administration exacerbates the situation (I do not believe WE are doing God's work even if GW does)... But it does NOT EXCUSE the behavior and the GLORIFICATION OF THE ACTS. And I am not going to get shot. I can say it, debate it, etc... That is not happening in the Islamic world.

BTW I think everyone should read about the Palestinians plight. Its not just Israel that has shoved them around. Jordan, Syria, etc... did not want to have anything to do with them and actually giving the Palestinians a place to stay. They instead used them. IN FAct some of these countries drove the Palestinians out of areas they lived in. To blame Israel for all the Palestinians problems is a terrible oversimplification.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

When the UN issues a resolution condemning some Israeli action (whatever it may be), it always, always, gets voted 13-1. The U.S. always "rejects" the resolution. No questions asked. The Arab street does not differentiate between Israel and the U.S., which while not disingenuous or regretable, sure as heck is lamentable.
regards,
-s2s

The majority is not always right. I would agree we have a unique relationship with Israel. We have voted for some things that I would not agree with and would go with the rest of the world. But when you say 13-1 you have to look who is voting. Do you expect China and Russia to vote with US? Do you expect France which has very close ties with the Arab world to vote with US? Would you expect some very antisemitic European countries to vote with Israel?

And really we need not get into UN resolutions getting voted for or against... when the UN votes to remove arms from Hezbollah and then no one except the US and Britian bring up this resolution??? And now Lebanon says Hezbollah will not be forced to disarm... Unbelievable.

Round 1 is over. Nothing has been solved. Israel will wait until more rockets are fired in the future, point back to this cease-fire and UN troops inability to stop an Iranian puppet, use this as lessoned learned and go in much more forcefully. Lebanon's puppet government has set up more innocent people for slaughter to blame on Israel. The extremists will not be able to hold back... There is no country within a country crap anymore.

How was the current situation started? Hezbollah came across the border and did what? ANd for what purpose? The timing was....
Israel now knows many more rockets await as Iran rearms Hezbollah and plan for a far more destructive encounter in the future. Thats just wonderful news for all. You just know this is exactly what is happening. Good news for Iran. For southern Lebanon... sadly, dead people dont complain. I fear next time you will not see TV coverage of people in Southern Lebanon streaming North trying to uncover their dead relatives bodies before they leave. They wont complain just like the 30,000 people that were slaughtered in one very large quick massacre in Hama Syria carried out by the elder Assad.

Ever heard of this massacre? Arab v. Arab. You say Iraq considers US soldiers Jews while Shia slaughters Sunni and vice versa in much larger numbers than have occurred in Lebanon. They want us out so one of the two groups can take over and then turn on the Kurds. Wonderful.

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

1. of course, I want Hezbollah disarmed
2. I agree the statement from Israel is BS
3. I do not promote or condone the Hezbollah violence, just try to understand it in the wider and necessary context.
4. Round 2 will be worse than round 1, I agree.

There's no good guy winners here. The Lebanese, already a fledgling democracy before this, are now frail and fragile. And if the gov't there fails, the next man up is, indeed Hezbollah. Bad for Lebanon, worse for the overal region, including Israel.

The Israelis certainly do not appear winners and it certainly appears Olmert and the Kadima party are done. The problem with running a centrrist party is that you get sniped at on both sides as Olmert is learning.

The Palestinians/Hamas-led leaders are losers as well. The freest elections ever held in Palestine are going to have been an exercise in futility. The most likely new Israeli power will absolutely no longer withdraw from occupied Palestinian land or close settlements, further pushing away from any chance for real peace in the region. The Arab world will see more "starvation blockades," courtesy of the Israeli hardliners.

And, of course, the rest of the civilized Western World, courtesy of Pres. Bush and blindly loyal American support of Israel is a big loser. The U.S. influence at the UN, blocking early cerase-fire efforts, supplying Israel wth its arms and especially our pre-attack support of the Israeli offensive obviously backfired as the goal of disarming Hezbollah was not remotely close to being achieved.

Moving forward, we'll see the fringe Islamist groups continue to gain traction while Bush gets urged by his dwindling base tp push forward and hard on Iran as his last chance to save his presidency in the eyes of his final few supporters.

pgardn, sorry if you find my comments offensive, but this is how many people see the world. And in turn, you can be assured I am not offended when you call me disingenuous or whatever other term you choose to use.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But at the United Nations in New York, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged Secretary General Kofi Annan to ensure the complete disarmament of Hezbollah and to prevent it from being rearmed by Iran and Syria.

This is a "moment of truth" for the international community, she said. The world cannot "allow Hezbollah to rise again and threaten the future of the region."



This statement from Israel is BS. This will be Israel's reason for going back in a most severe manner. imo the UN will not be able to disarm Hezbollah and Israel will come right back to statements like this. The Israelis know right now that Hezbollah is being rearmed, they know this.

I am very sad to say round 2 will be devastation. This is a setup statement for a knockout punch. Israel knows that absolutely nothing was accomplished long term in round 1. No soldiers back, Hezbollah not wiped out, not even disarmed. It was a failure and there are vows within the military to not fail again in a confrontation like this. And the failure is now thought to be one of not going in to win and underestimating the enemy. The same mistake will not be made twice.

DTS, STS do you want Hezbollah disarmed? or do you want the above. I pray that somehow, someone understands what a second conflict will mean. A massacre.

Pgardn,
I sure would like Hezbollah disarmed.
I also would like to see Iran and North Korea disarmed.
Heck, while we're at it..I'd like to see every country disarmed.
The reality is that that's not going to happen any time soon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Einstein shared similar views.
So...until the world's belligerents decide to employ other strategies to resolve "valid" grievances, seems to me that "colon cleansing" is the answer.
Just remember to stand way back...cause when the sh-t let's go, you best not be in the line of fire.

Honestly, I really DO have difficulty understanding the motivations that drive humans to be willing to die for this nonsense.
Now I expect the responses...DTS.."you're so naive", "such an idealist"...blah, blah, blah. "What? You didn't post something from common dreams?"
Colon cleansing!
More than enough to go around.


btw...stock tip of the day...invest in Marcal Paper products and the mfg. of "depends".

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
Honestly, I really DO have difficulty understanding the motivations that drive humans to be willing to die for this nonsense.
Now I expect the responses...DTS.."you're so naive", "such an idealist"...blah, blah, blah. "What? You didn't post something from common dreams?"
Colon cleansing!
More than enough to go around.


btw...stock tip of the day...invest in Marcal Paper products and the mfg. of "depends".

The conditions of severe poverty and hopelessness, with a good dose of brainwashing are the recipe for making the monsters you speak of. Again, we can try and rectify the production of monsters, but this is a long term process (and for God's sake for those of you who say it is all Israels fault look at the totalitarian leadership in the Middle East and how the Druze, Shiites, and Sunnis will go at each other with or without Israel).
The question that Israel must answer NOW is a monster stands before you, no matter how the monster was made, what are you going to do? The two statements presented above are so Republican (Dammit do something now, we will wade thru all the sh it we have caused later... hopefully...) and Democratic (well we know its not really your fault you are a monster, so how bout a nice talk while you slit my throat, shall we?)

I hate political parties for these obvious errors. Sorry to rant.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Syria and Iran (courageous as they are) wll fight untill the last Lebonese and the last Palestinian are dead.

Unless some bizzare abberation takes place the assault and destuction of Iran will not start until about 6 months before the upcoming Presidential election in 08. Americans do not change horses in wartime. Overwelming destruction and death in Iran/Syria is the ticket Condi, Knute or Rudi will ride into the White House.

Some of my pupils from ****** took me into So. Lebanon yesterday. I have never seen nor smelled anything like that in my entire life. The BS being yakked about Hezz financing and aiding in rebuilding the destruction is just that, BS.

Nasrahllah, Assad and that psycho from Iran are "dead men walking".

• Israel needs new leadership ... Olmert = Chamberlain ... Bibi = Churchill

• The next war will not be tied to the U.S. election cycle ... it will be provoked at random by the deluded Islamists who think they "won" this one.

• Let's hope the next war will be decided by a combination of killing the top terrorists ... Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, Assad, Nasrullah, Princequillo ... and provoking a popular uprising in Iran ... rather than by the severe destruction ... Germay/Japan-style ... of entire nations.

But ... no matter how it goes ... the deluded Islamists are in for a rude awakening ... or rather ... a rude deadening.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

• Israel needs new leadership ... Olmert = Chamberlain ... Bibi = Churchill

Olmert... maybe... a little early for that, he may have learned his lesson. Bibi = Mussolini