Pletcher explains Flower Alley's last race

[KY_Sasquash]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

than why are they continuing on with him?? if something IS wrong, why keep going? if it's not serious enough to warrant stopping, than it isn't serious enough to keep him from competing, right? i think pletcher took it too easy with him. he had a big plan that worked out on paper, problem is you have to do it, not just show it can be done. the horse obviously wasn't ready to tackle the likes of invasor and sun king...who would have thought it? no one, everyone expected this horse to come out from last fall and win everything he entered....pletcher must have believed it too. oops.

i'm not saying flower alley got lost, but maybe he didn't pay as much attention, maybe he thought flower alley was doing so well that he was on auto pilot with him.

gotta say, i appreciate the likes of lava man and his campaign this year, rather than soft flower alley and his....maybe this year will show people that going too lightly is wrong, moderation is the key. not too much, not too little.

still waiting for lava man to win outside of california and he last race wasnt as good as it looked. he was all out to beat Ace Blue. He's vulnerable in the pacific classic.

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

I tend to agree with this. I think his rep was really earned based on that 2nd place in the BC Classic which was good, but not enough to suddenly make him "thee horse".

[ateamstupid]

I'm inclined to give FA one more shot. If he can't produce next time out, I'll be ready to toss him as well, but off two races, I can't call him totally overrated or washed up..

Yet..

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Seriously, Flower Alley really hasnt won that much. Sure he got two Grade I's as a three year old but who has he really beaten in his career? He beat Bellamy Road in his 1st race back in the Travers (big deal) and he beat no one in the Jim Dandy. I really think the horse is overrated when I look closer. I have to admit I was really impressed me in the Salvatore Mile but I was wrong. I think the horse will be lucky to beat three year olds. I dont think anything is wrong other than he isnt as good as it seems.

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Its hysterical here that many of the same "experts" on this board who love Invasor have bashed Sun King repeatedly. How exactly does that work? Lets see if I get this right, one horse is king of the world and the other is a nothing rat. Yet the king of the world is the king of the world because he beats the "rat" by a nose? Wow!!
I actually like both horses, and like FA but don't know what to make of his last race either.

[AeWingnut]

I think Flower Alley is big and FAT
Pletcher has to look at the sheets ? Didn't he watch the race?

I thought they were trying to pull a Tiznow.

run two preps and fire in the BC Classic

Not buying the optimism...I think this horse is done....hate to be synical, but you can't look at that race ad think of it as a positive race for a horse of his stature....he folded like a cheap suit ad he was supposed to be the incumbant handicap division leader.....if he didn't have a better excuse than that like something that physically went wrong, then I would say that the horse is not close to the same animal as a year ago...

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Its hysterical here that many of the same "experts" on this board who love Invasor have bashed Sun King repeatedly. How exactly does that work? Lets see if I get this right, one horse is king of the world and the other is a nothing rat. Yet the king of the world is the king of the world because he beats the "rat" by a nose? Wow!!
I actually like both horses, and like FA but don't know what to make of his last race either.

Sheesh, Rupert, Invasor is "ridiculously overrated"? Compared to WHOM? The horse has lost 1 race, right? In Dubai to Discreet Cat. He comes here and reels off 3 straight wins, 2 of them in races with hallowed names in American racing. He has 2 of the top 15 BSF's run in route races this year. He's not winning these races by default.

Using Sun King as a measure of how good Invasor is is like using Sharp Humor to measure Barbaro. I'm sure there are horses that did (and will) beat Sharp Humor by more than the 1/2-length that Barbaro beat him in the Florida Derby. Are those horses on a level with Barbaro because they handled Sharp Humor more easily?

oracle, I think there are legitimate reasons to like Invasor a lot more than Sun King. Sun King has run some nice races, but he has thrown in numerous clunkers, too. Consistency counts for a lot.

--Dunbar

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Sheesh, Rupert, Invasor is "ridiculously overrated"? Compared to WHOM? The horse has lost 1 race, right? In Dubai to Discreet Cat. He comes here and reels off 3 straight wins, 2 of them in races with hallowed names in American racing. He has 2 of the top 15 BSF's run in route races this year. He's not winning these races by default.

Using Sun King as a measure of how good Invasor is is like using Sharp Humor to measure Barbaro. I'm sure there are horses that did (and will) beat Sharp Humor by more than the 1/2-length that Barbaro beat him in the Florida Derby. Are those horses on a level with Barbaro because they handled Sharp Humor more easily?

oracle, I think there are legitimate reasons to like Invasor a lot more than Sun King. Sun King has run some nice races, but he has thrown in numerous clunkers, too. Consistency counts for a lot.

--Dunbar

I'm just giving my opinion. I have no stake in this. I have no connection to Invasor or FA. Invasor is obviously a good horse. He's one of the top few best horses on the East coast right now. But some years the horses are stronger than other years. On the East coast this year, I don't think the older horses compare to the older horses on the East coast in 2004 or 2005.

By the way, I think that Discreet Cat beat Invasor by about 7 lengths or something like that.

With regards to the Barbaro/Sharp Humor comparison, I think that Barbaro ran about 5-6 lengths better in the Derby than in his win over Sharp Humor. I think Invasor ran his race against SK.

To address what Danzig was saying, I'm not saying that FA is better than Invasor right now. I'm saying that when FA is at his best he is much better than Invasor.

There are several horses out there right now that I think would beat Invasor by open lengths on their best day. I think that on his best day Bernardini would beat Invasor by 3-4 lengths. I think that LAva Man and surf cat would both easily handle Invasor on their best day. I think that Buzzard's Bay would esily handle Invasor on his best day. I will be extremely surprised if Invasor wins the BC Classic.

[Gander]

There are several horses out there right now that I think would beat Invasor by open lengths on their best day. I think that on his best day Bernardini would beat Invasor by 3-4 lengths. I think that LAva Man and surf cat would both easily handle Invasor on their best day. I think that Buzzard's Bay would esily handle Invasor on his best day. I will be extremely surprised if Invasor wins the BC Classic.

I agree with all this. I think Sun King should have been able to get by Invasor yet he didnt. Neither strike me as a major player in the Classic, especially if Bernardini runs in it.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

To address what Danzig was saying, I'm not saying that FA is better than Invasor right now. I'm saying that when FA is at his best he is much better than Invasor.

There are several horses out there right now that I think would beat Invasor by open lengths on their best day. I think that on his best day Bernardini would beat Invasor by 3-4 lengths. I think that LAva Man and surf cat would both easily handle Invasor on their best day. I think that Buzzard's Bay would esily handle Invasor on his best day. I will be extremely surprised if Invasor wins the BC Classic.

On a horse's "best day", a lot of things can happen. Some horses do not need their best day to run at the very top level. Invasor has answered each call so far. So has Bernardini, for that matter. FA has thrown in clunkers that have to be explained with whatever excuse seems most logical. Same thing with Buzzard's Bay. I would take Invasor against FA or Buzzard's Bay in a matchup at +100 if given the chance. For that matter, I'm not sure we've seen Invasor's best day yet.

If you will be "extremely surprised if Invasor wins the BC Classic", then who do you think is a more likely winner? I can only think of Bernardini and Lava Man. If you think any other horse is more likely, then we can make a "friendly" bet on the race. It can either be a matchup (whichever horse finishes in front of the other) or we could say that one of the horses must win. You pick a horse other than LM or Bernardini, and I'll accept it. (um...before the Pacific Classic, of course.) Maybe leave out David Junior, too--I'm thinking US-based horses ;>)

--Dunbar

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm just giving my opinion. I have no stake in this. I have no connection to Invasor or FA. Invasor is obviously a good horse. He's one of the top few best horses on the East coast right now. But some years the horses are stronger than other years. On the East coast this year, I don't think the older horses compare to the older horses on the East coast in 2004 or 2005.

By the way, I think that Discreet Cat beat Invasor by about 7 lengths or something like that.

With regards to the Barbaro/Sharp Humor comparison, I think that Barbaro ran about 5-6 lengths better in the Derby than in his win over Sharp Humor. I think Invasor ran his race against SK.

To address what Danzig was saying, I'm not saying that FA is better than Invasor right now. I'm saying that when FA is at his best he is much better than Invasor.

There are several horses out there right now that I think would beat Invasor by open lengths on their best day. I think that on his best day Bernardini would beat Invasor by 3-4 lengths. I think that LAva Man and surf cat would both easily handle Invasor on their best day. I think that Buzzard's Bay would esily handle Invasor on his best day. I will be extremely surprised if Invasor wins the BC Classic.

hard to say what he'd do at his best, when was the last time we've seen it? or here's a scary thought, what if his bad day the other day is now his best?

as for invasor losing to discreet cat, he never lost before, and he hasn't lost since--yet he's getting a whole lot of grief for that one time when he shipped in and sputtered. and now he's here, giving lie to the dreaded dubai jinx, and cleaning house.

hey, i have to say i hope they figure out what's wrong with flower alley. nothing i enjoy than watching good horses go toe to toe. but i'm leery about the continued high praise for a horse that has won once in a years time.

[Gander]

People who criticize Lava Man for not winning out of his home state absolutely crack me up. Actually criticizing a horse thats one multiple grade ones this year on 2 different surfaces. Flower Alley rests all winter and cant even be competitive in a race on his bread and butter track. Granted, Invasor is a nice horse and Sun King has really improved, but not even to hit the board in a race you have been targeting for months and months? Wow.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Gander

People who criticize Lava Man for not winning out of his home state absolutely crack me up. Actually criticizing a horse thats one multiple grade ones this year on 2 different surfaces. Flower Alley rests all winter and cant even be competitive in a race on his bread and butter track. Granted, Invasor is a nice horse and Sun King has really improved, but not even to hit the board in a race you have been targeting for months and months? Wow.

Same thing with Surf Cat, Tim. I don't give a rats ass if he has all his wins in Cali. as long as he keeps racking up the wins and the $$$

[Gander]

Big difference Kev. You know I love Surf Cat and his talent. But he needs to get on the racetrack, any racetrack and win a significant race. To date, I dont think hes won more than one significant race. Hope to see that soon.
As for Lava Man, another weekend, another old warrior to root for. Sunday he is expected to add another grade 1 to his resume and I believe he will do it in dramatic fashion. Its one thing for Giacomo to get past Preachinatthebar, but quite another for him to go by (up to this point) the horse of the year.

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by Gander

People who criticize Lava Man for not winning out of his home state absolutely crack me up. Actually criticizing a horse thats one multiple grade ones this year on 2 different surfaces. Flower Alley rests all winter and cant even be competitive in a race on his bread and butter track. Granted, Invasor is a nice horse and Sun King has really improved, but not even to hit the board in a race you have been targeting for months and months? Wow.

I'm with you, because even if Lava Man doesn't win, he literally runs his heart out trying, like last years Pacific Classic, that race more than any of his others showed me how much heart and class Lava Man has, he got a ridiculously bad ride running into an insane pace and he still desperately tried to the effect of his own health, he was literally exhausted and almost collapsed, give me that horse over Flower Alley any day of the week.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Gander

People who criticize Lava Man for not winning out of his home state absolutely crack me up. Actually criticizing a horse thats one multiple grade ones this year on 2 different surfaces. Flower Alley rests all winter and cant even be competitive in a race on his bread and butter track. Granted, Invasor is a nice horse and Sun King has really improved, but not even to hit the board in a race you have been targeting for months and months? Wow.

true true true...
and i also got a kick out of the criticism that lava man barely won his last...hell, maybe he bounced in that race, yet still won. after all, that is the point, to win! and he's done that all year. the pacific this weekend only whetting my appetite for when the man and invasor lock horns at churchill.

[2 Dollar Bill]

Makes one wonder with all the success of his 2 year olds... they dont show up in the winners circle on the ""first saturday of may""..

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Flower Alley has done much more to impress me than Invasor. Invasor beat a totally empty field in the Pimlico Special where nobody fired. In his next race, he beat a terrible field. Then in his last race he beat Sun King by a nose.

Flower Alley was pretty much on par and was probably slightly better than Roman Ruler last year. Sun King was not nearly as good as either of those horses last year. You could argue that Sun King has improved this year but I honestly don't think he has. I haven't been overly impressed with any of his races this year. I actually think he was better last year.

Flower Alley's coming within a length of Saint Liam showed what level he is on. SL ran Ghostzapper to a photo finish. FA is a very good horse on his best day. I think that Invasor is ridiculously overrated. I think that FA would easily handle him on his best day.

first of all, we all know that form at two doesn't signify what a horse will do at three, and evidently what a horse does at three doesn't translate to four either. how you can be more impressed by a horse that's one for two on the year, than by a horse who has shipped around the world, and has lost once ever is beyond me.

besides, speculating that FA could beat invasor is one thing, actual results another. looks to me that invasor handled him just fine....

oh, and btw--this is danzig188...i'm at work, so i guess this will be my work sign in....