Assault

[zippyneedsawin]

How do you look up the workouts for a horse that ran in 1946?!?

I'd love to know the work pattern for Kincsem if you have the time.

[Pedigree Ann]

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

BTW Ann those the trainers and vets or those amazing cross country/ steeplechase horses inject like crazy also.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

These horses in the old days galloped a lot every day, a couple of miles, so they were fit before they started working. And because they were fit, they COULD work and race more often. Modern race trainers have no idea of what horses are capable of doing if brought up to it correctly. They should all go to a 3-day event on Cross-country day, with roads and tracks, steeplechase, and cross-country to see what a fit horse can accomplish without falling apart.

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

He did a great job the horse made a ton of money and was syndicated.. When you succeed how can you question the methodology?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by freddymo

He did a great job the horse made a ton of money and was syndicated.. When you succeed how can you question the methodology?

I think you might have somehow misunderstood my post.
I completely agree that he did a great job with Afleet Alex. My question for Chuck was simply whether or not he thought that type of training could be used effectively with a lot of horses, or if it was just Ritchey finding something that would work for Afleet Alex specifically, but might not work for very many others.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I think you might have somehow misunderstood my post.
I completely agree that he did a great job with Afleet Alex. My question for Chuck was simply whether or not he thought that type of training could be used effectively with a lot of horses, or if it was just Ritchey finding something that would work for Afleet Alex specifically, but might not work for very many others.

The horse made 12 starts 4 grade 1 wins 2 g2 wins and very good derby effort..

Whatever Ritchey did, However Ritchey did it is was certainly in the horses best interest. Half of AA wins are G1 and G2 race? HELLO that is pretty fn good

Horses aren't robots what works for one may or may not work for another..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Some good points obviously.
My question is, what did you think of the job that Tim Ritchey did with Afleet Alex in '05? It seemed like Ritchey took much more of an "old-school" approach than most trainers do. Not only did he give the colt all of those long slow works, he also started the colt's season in a sprint like they often did in the past. It seemed to work out pretty well for AA.
As a trainer yourself, do you think more trainers should use those older techniques more often, or was that just a case of a system that worked well for one particular horse?

The horse broke down and never raced past June of his three year old year. Is that successful training? Is it possible that the horse may have been better and lasted longer if he had not been trained in that style? That he was doing well despite the methods not because of them?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The horse broke down and never raced past June of his three year old year. Is that successful training? Is it possible that the horse may have been better and lasted longer if he had not been trained in that style? That he was doing well despite the methods not because of them?

its also possible that his injury had nothing to do with how he was trained.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

its also possible that his injury had nothing to do with how he was trained.

Likely not possible

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

its also possible that his injury had nothing to do with how he was trained.

Possibly but that type of injury is usually a repetative stress injury and obviously he had more stress than the normal horse.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The horse broke down and never raced past June of his three year old year. Is that successful training? Is it possible that the horse may have been better and lasted longer if he had not been trained in that style? That he was doing well despite the methods not because of them?

That's a fair point. I guess there are two ways to look at the Belmont Stakes that year. On the one hand, Afleet Alex seemed to have a level of fitness and stamina in that race that one could reasonably give Ritchey credit for. On the other hand, it was the last race he ever ran, and I guess one could also blame Ritchey's techniques for that.
I tend to think the first rather than the second one is true, but I don't really have anything solid to base that on.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

Why would you open your barn to anyone? And respectfully how many mordern trainers have learned there craft from great horseman from the "post modern" (whatever that means) times? How many great trainers from 1947 are still around. look there is no doubt some of what you suggest is true but let's face it its a lot easier to medicate and succeed especially when you know no better. if that is all you have known then that is what you do. this business that the breed is different is really a bit far fetched.. Evening Attire's dam has thrown 4 that have races 50 times and 3 that will have raced 70 times.. What breed is she? Should we expect that her daughters will produce fragile foals that can only race 5 times a year because they are part of the new breed?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Why would you open your barn to anyone? And respectfully how many mordern trainers have learned there craft from great horseman from the "post modern" (whatever that means) times? How many great trainers from 1947 are still around. look there is no doubt some of what you suggest is true but let's face it its a lot easier to medicate and succeed especially when you know no better. if that is all you have known then that is what you do. this business that the breed is different is really a bit far fetched.. Evening Attire's dam has thrown 4 that have races 50 times and 3 that will have raced 70 times.. What breed is she? Should we expect that her daughters will produce fragile foals that can only race 5 times a year because they are part of the new breed?

I would open my barn to anyone because i have nothing to hide and I find that when I actually show people things in reality they get a much clearer picture than all these theories that get passed around.
Respectfully, I did learn from a trainer that was around during those golden days and much if not most of what I know about racehorses, training and changing techniques is from him. Therefore i would conclude that I DO know better than just to medicate but according to you 'traditionalists' we should still practice such medical techniques as bloodletting. Of course when we want to pinfire a horse like was done in the old days we are told that is a barbaric and ineffective technique.

Obviously Evening Attire's Dam is an abberation. Cherry picking one mare out of 75000 active mares to prove your point is a bit of a stretch no?

Next time you are at the Hall of fame in Saratoga or anywhere else where you can see pictures of old time horses, take a look at the horses from yesteryear. Then take a look at the modern ones.

[Storm Cadet]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont you think that of the thousands of "modern" trainers that one of them would have tested your theory? I always find it amusing what we "modern trainers" are doing wrong. My barn is open to anyone who wants to actually see what it is to train horses as opposed to those who just theorize what we should do.

I'll be there this Saturday AM to EXAMINE your methods!

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I'd love to know the work pattern for Kincsem if you have the time.

Did you know that one of her Grosser Preis von Badens originally finished in a dead-heat? And that they raced it off, the full distance, the same day? She won, of course.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Did you know that one of her Grosser Preis von Badens originally finished in a dead-heat? And that they raced it off, the full distance, the same day? She won, of course.

I knew she finished in a dead-heat.. I didn't know it was re-run.. the SAME DAY!!

[Pedigree Ann]

They let them rest a few hours, of course. They had only stopped having races in 4-mile heats in the US a decade or earlier. Kincsem had it easier.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

How do you look up the workouts for a horse that ran in 1946?!?

I read through a copy of Hall of Fame trainer Preston Burch's 55 year old book 'Training Thoroughbred Horses'

If released today - I believe the title would now be called 'How to kill thoroughbred horses with old fashioned methods from pre medication days'