Interesting discussion

[scanman]

Originally Posted by Scav

They can test blood till the pigs fly and they won't find the good stuff that some of these guys are using. At least they won't find it yet....

So what's the answer, make accusations that Ness is a cheater until technology catches up with him?

Ness went on the other forum and gave an explanation for his success. Okay, until proven otherwise, it is what it is. Just maybe, the man is a very good trainer. I don't know the man, nor anyone who is affliated with him, but his record speaks for itself.

I hope he does respond to your post on the other forum, but in reality, I don't know what he could say that would cause you to have a different opinion of him.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by scanman

So what's the answer, make accusations that Ness is a cheater until technology catches up with him?

Ness went on the other forum and gave an explanation for his success. Okay, until proven otherwise, it is what it is. Just maybe, the man is a very good trainer. I don't know the man, nor anyone who is affliated with him, but his record speaks for itself.

I hope he does respond to your post on the other forum, but in reality, I don't know what he could say that would cause you to have a different opinion of him.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by scanman

So what's the answer, make accusations that Ness is a cheater until technology catches up with him?

Ness went on the other forum and gave an explanation for his success. Okay, until proven otherwise, it is what it is. Just maybe, the man is a very good trainer. I don't know the man, nor anyone who is affliated with him, but his record speaks for itself.

I hope he does respond to your post on the other forum, but in reality, I don't know what he could say that would cause you to have a different opinion of him.

See below what another trainer said, one that I respect, in regards to these crazy moveups

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This guy says that his success is from "getting them fit" which I would take as training them harder. LOL. There may be a rare occasion that you find something out of order like a bad tooth, bad shoe, abcess, ulcers, ect. that can turn around quickly. I doubt that 41% of his claims have such issues.

Here is what I know, I know that statistically, he is blowing normal achievable numbers out of the water with racing stock that has PREVIOUS FORM. This racing stock is showing HUGE improvements first out for Ness, and it continues, until he 'squeezes the lemon dry' and then he dumps it to someone willing to take the risk.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

See below what another trainer said, one that I respect, in regards to these crazy moveups



Here is what I know, I know that statistically, he is blowing normal achievable numbers out of the water with racing stock that has PREVIOUS FORM. This racing stock is showing HUGE improvements first out for Ness, and it continues, until he 'squeezes the lemon dry' and then he dumps it to someone willing to take the risk.

This is where it gets confusing for me. People that claim horses off guys like Ness. Are they really naive (look it up Tom) enough to think that:

1. They can move the horse up even more

or

B. They horse will maintain its current form after the claim

[Scav]

Originally Posted by GPK

This is where it gets confusing for me. People that claim horses off guys like Ness. Are they really naive (look it up Tom) enough to think that:

1. They can move the horse up even more

or

B. They horse will maintain its current form after the claim

I thought I spelled it right when I used it earlier....

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

I thought I spelled it right when I used it earlier....

Hell...I may have spelled it wrong. I just wasnt sure you knew the definition.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by GPK

Hell...I may have spelled it wrong. I just wasnt sure you knew the definition.

oh....I know what it means

It is just like claiming off Catalano, short term, you can get 1 or two races out of them (Magana does this all the time) but long term, they are running at the bottom in only a matter of time

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Scav

oh....I know what it means

It is just like claiming off Catalano, short term, you can get 1 or two races out of them (Magana does this all the time) but long term, they are running at the bottom in only a matter of time

But am I mistaken in thinking that this is just a losing propostition in the long run?

[scanman]

Originally Posted by Scav

See below what another trainer said, one that I respect, in regards to these crazy moveups



Here is what I know, I know that statistically, he is blowing normal achievable numbers out of the water with racing stock that has PREVIOUS FORM. This racing stock is showing HUGE improvements first out for Ness, and it continues, until he 'squeezes the lemon dry' and then he dumps it to someone willing to take the risk.

Understood. I respect and agree with most of what Cannon Shell writes. That being said, I still think that Ness in entitled to the "benefit of the doubt" until proven otherwise.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by scanman

Understood. I respect and agree with most of what Cannon Shell writes. That being said, I still think that Ness in entitled to the "benefit of the doubt" until proven otherwise.

So are Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds. Do you believe them? They haven't failed a test either. I dont think anyone shouldnt be skeptical about these guys who seemingly appear out of nowhere and suddenly do extraordinary things. If they are clean than they will have long successful careers. If not they go the way of Juan Serey, Oscar, Preston King, and many others.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So are Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds. Do you believe them? They haven't failed a test either. I dont think anyone shouldnt be skeptical about these guys who seemingly appear out of nowhere and suddenly do extraordinary things. If they are clean than they will have long successful careers. If not they go the way of Juan Serey, Oscar, Preston King, and many others.

I haven't followed the issue with Clemens or Bonds close enough to have an opinion, but no positive = no guilt. But that leads to the other issue of whether or not baseball was/is testing for the "right" drugs to show an illegal positive, which I guess is the same issue that we have with racing.

Yes, be skeptical if you like, but those who scorn a man's good name without facts serve no purpose.

I hope Ness is clean and has a long successful career (and you too). The sport needs positive stories and with Ness, so far so good.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Ness has a fairly cheap day rate - I'm curious if it's true that he rarely uses the vet as he claims.

I assumed his vet bills might be gigantic.

Maybe he's just moving them up with good old fashioned hay, oats, and water bought on the cheap with big volume discounts.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by scanman

So what's the answer, make accusations that Ness is a cheater until technology catches up with him?

Ness went on the other forum and gave an explanation for his success. Okay, until proven otherwise, it is what it is. Just maybe, the man is a very good trainer. I don't know the man, nor anyone who is affliated with him, but his record speaks for itself.

I hope he does respond to your post on the other forum, but in reality, I don't know what he could say that would cause you to have a different opinion of him.

...and Marion Jones swore under oath that she never took illegal drugs.....until she was caught. Just because he says so, doesn't mean we have to believe him.

There is no answer. As you say, it is what it is, but we can have opinions on the matter.

Mine just happens to be 180 degrees from yours.

[scanman]

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

...and Marion Jones swore under oath that she never took illegal drugs.....until she was caught. Just because he says so, doesn't mean we have to believe him.

There is no answer. As you say, it is what it is, but we can have opinions on the matter.

Mine just happens to be 180 degrees from yours.

Fair enough and I do respect your opinion. Though, what did you expect Ness to write, "I get a 41% win-rate off a claim because my horses are juiced?"

There just seems to be a prevailing mentality that "if a trainer is successful, he must be a cheater". In Ness' case, it hasn't been proven, so for now, let's give the man his due.