bad day at CD

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Certainly there is nothing that can completely eliminate the problem, but we could start with drug free race day medications. We all know horses are running when they should not be. Another thing that needs to be done is racing meets need to be scaled back and the yearly number of races run need to be reduced, so when horses are not running because they are in pain they are not forced to run to fill races. race tracks need to support these bans but a reason they put up with drugs is they need all these races to fill and if a little pain killer is needed I don't think they care as long as the races fill.

I think tracks is some states were allowed to get harder and harder, such as California, and in the long run led to training race horses for quarter horse speed which is not a good thing if you have to run more then four hundred yards.

I think trainers should be punished like they are in Hong Kong for drug violations.

I think its ridiculous that horses are hit 30 times down the stretch, its legal now but that does not make it right.

I think the breeding industry is a sham right now, its a meat market mentality that starts when they look at the pedigree match ups right through the two year old sales. I could go on and on.

I think that you like a lot of other people have some reasonable ideas yet you assume a lot and dont take into consideration many things.

There is no legal raceday medication that would have any bearing on horses breaking down. Nice sentiment but pretty much not a factor in horses breaking down,.

You say "we all know horses are running when they arent supposed to be". I say how do you know except in an after the fact, monday morning quarterbacking way? How do you determine what is ok and what isnt? That is a question that trainers ask themselves each day and let me tell you there is no simple solution because as Bigs said before, virtually no horse is 100% everytime. A lot of times horses with chronic issues are the safest ones to run because they seemingly know their limitations and the ones that seem completely sound are the ones that overextend and breakdown.

The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less oportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available.

The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners dont allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out. Look at a guy like Nick Zito and how he has changed his training methods with babies. He used to almost always give them a race first time out which is the way he learned from the trainers in the 60's. But a few years ago he started cranking them up like everybody else because he was losing owners to guys that won with firsters. When established guys like Zito have to change successful training methods in order to keep owners and get horses, you can see that the trend has become the rule. Guys like Charlie Whittingham (for those who arent familiar, he was pretty good) almost never won first time and really didnt even want to, prefering to get horses experience before taking on more advanced rivals. Horses are running as much as they were in the 60's except many of the races are run for no purse in the morning. But since horses are investment tools in many cases there is pressure to not run until they are 99% ready to run their best and then they have to run well as to not diminish "value". Personally I would be very content in giving my horses a race or 2 as two year olds before really cranking them down but the market simply doesnt allow that anymore. Another thing that a trainer has to be concerned with is win % and losing too many prep races is bad for the old percentage.

I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their systemm wont work here.

Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham?

All these ideas are interesting but i have yet to see anything that would serve any direct ability to prevent breakdowns.

[10 pnt move up]

" I say how do you know except in an after the fact"

First hand knowledge, at the time I was young and just thought that's what everyone does. To be fair none of those horses who were given medicines for pain ever broke down.


"The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less opportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available."

yes this is a bit theory but I know, again first hand knowledge, that trainers have entered horses in California to fill for the secretary with full knowledge they were not ready to run.

"The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners don't allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out"

absolutely zero disagreement there, its a win first mentality perpetuated by the media and breeding industry.

"I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their system wont work here."

So we should let trainers who bend the rules skate because we don't have the same purse structure? I say the model we have is broken. There are to many tracks, to many races, the wagering dollar is stretched to thin, yet purses have to go up to make it work for the owners and the trainers to make money. That's broken. But we can just keep raising take out, I am willing to bet Ky is on its way up now that NY just raised there to obscene levels.

"Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham"

To start the cosmetic surgeries should not be allowed. Medications should not be allowed for these two year old in training sales. Maybe stallion restrictions should be considered. Maybe horses should not be inbred like they have been.

I hate the status quo. This will sound sadistic but I want the whole thing to blow up because its broken. From ADW's, to breeding, to regulation, to product, etc etc...its broken.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

" I say how do you know except in an after the fact"

First hand knowledge, at the time I was young and just thought that's what everyone does. To be fair none of those horses who were given medicines for pain ever broke down.


"The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less opportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available."

yes this is a bit theory but I know, again first hand knowledge, that trainers have entered horses in California to fill for the secretary with full knowledge they were not ready to run.

"The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners don't allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out"

absolutely zero disagreement there, its a win first mentality perpetuated by the media and breeding industry.

"I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their system wont work here."

So we should let trainers who bend the rules skate because we don't have the same purse structure? I say the model we have is broken. There are to many tracks, to many races, the wagering dollar is stretched to thin, yet purses have to go up to make it work for the owners and the trainers to make money. That's broken. But we can just keep raising take out, I am willing to bet Ky is on its way up now that NY just raised there to obscene levels.

"Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham"

To start the cosmetic surgeries should not be allowed. Medications should not be allowed for these two year old in training sales. Maybe stallion restrictions should be considered. Maybe horses should not be inbred like they have been.

I hate the status quo. This will sound sadistic but I want the whole thing to blow up because its broken. From ADW's, to breeding, to regulation, to product, etc etc...its broken.

Guys do enter races under pressure from the racing office but it is a stretch to say they are entering sore or horses that should not be running. Usually they hustle to run in a race where you will be 15-1 which is the reason you didnt enter in the first place.

I dont know that the media or breedng industry have as much to do with pressure to win early as does the economics of the business. One of the main reasons that the horseman are united and sticking together on the ADW issue is that we NEED more money while the tracks want more money. Day rates are not covering expenses for most trainers, shipping, feed, and hay expenses are up 30 to 40% but very few of us can raise our day rates because very few owners are willing to lose MORE money, not that I blame them. Therefore people are looking to show off their horses for resale, not necessarily just for for breeding purposes. We understand that everybody is under financial stress but we were in a bad spot before gas was $4.00 a gallon. Some owners simply dont have the time to develop horses like the Phipps. I would probably say most.

I didnt say that trainers should be allowed to bend rules or skate but Hong Kong is a much different situation than we are in here, therefore we cant look to the model or penalty system there as a guide. It is simply too different in terms of setup and the legal system. It would be like imposing NFL franchise regulations on high schools.

I have been in the middle of the road about the surgeries because they may actually help soundness in some ways though they do make it hard no breeders because the real conformation is a bit hidden. I wouldnt cry if they were outlawed but I dont think as poorly about them as much as I used to. Medications at the 2 yo sales have been cut back but to me the simple solution to the 2 year old in training problm is to just not participate very much.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you think that there is a solution to horses breaking down, I would love to hear it.

The first thing they should do is not allow horses to race under medication. In countries like Germany it is not even possible to stand a stallion which has raced under medication even 1x.

If you need medication to race you shouldn't race. Right now very unsound horses can compete at all levels because they have medications to mask the pain.

Then you get unsound horses just producing more unsound horses.

Vindication was unsound and I assume he will produce plenty of unsound horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Americanus

The first thing they should do is not allow horses to race under medication. In countries like Germany it is not even possible to stand a stallion which has raced under medication even 1x.

If you need medication to race you shouldn't race. Right now very unsound horses can compete at all levels because they have medications to mask the pain.

Then you get unsound horses just producing more unsound horses.

Vindication was unsound and I assume he will produce plenty of unsound horses.

I'm just curious, I see you have named yourself for a horse currently racing in NY......do you think he should be allowed to race?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Americanus

The first thing they should do is not allow horses to race under medication. In countries like Germany it is not even possible to stand a stallion which has raced under medication even 1x.

If you need medication to race you shouldn't race. Right now very unsound horses can compete at all levels because they have medications to mask the pain.

Then you get unsound horses just producing more unsound horses.

Vindication was unsound and I assume he will produce plenty of unsound horses.

So there are no breakdowns in germany?

"Very unsound horses can compete at all levels because of medication?"
This is not true.

"Unsound horses " is not a catagory of horses. If you fall down and break your arm should you not be able to reproduce because you are unsound?
This type of thinking is not only stupid, is it totally without merit.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

C
I think the breeding industry is a sham right now, its a meat market mentality that starts when they look at the pedigree match ups right through the two year old sales. I could go on and on.

How about marketing 'free range' yearlings? The typical sales yearling isn't allowed to run and play to build up dense, tough bone; they are stalled and hand-walked so that they don't collect dents and dings that put off buyers. Of course, then they would look lean and fit and like the gawky adolenscents that they are, rather than fat, sleek near-adult-looking animals. Can't have that, you know.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I'm just curious, I see you have named yourself for a horse currently racing in NY......do you think he should be allowed to race?

man that is funny

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

The horse that broke down in the first race and was subsequently euthanized (Vinstar) was a $700,000 Vindication dropping in to a $50,000 maiden claiming race off a credible MSW race in which he ran a 74 Beyer in his first start of the year. All the signs were that this horse had a hole in him. Perhaps Jess Jackson should look in the mirror before questioning how others take care of their horses.

You think Jess Jackson had a friggin clue about one of 100 horses he owns... Totally unfair...What is suppose to do find a nice home for the colt instead of trying to get him back to racing at some level..

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

How about marketing 'free range' yearlings? The typical sales yearling isn't allowed to run and play to build up dense, tough bone; they are stalled and hand-walked so that they don't collect dents and dings that put off buyers. Of course, then they would look lean and fit and like the gawky adolenscents that they are, rather than fat, sleek near-adult-looking animals. Can't have that, you know.

This is so true on so many different scales..

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You think Jess Jackson had a friggin clue about one of 100 horses he owns... Totally unfair...What is suppose to do find a nice home for the colt instead of trying to get him back to racing at some level..

Unfair how? He's the owner. He's responsible, or at least his racing manager is. You think Asmussen just decided to enter this $700K yearling for $50K without getting the OK from Jackson or one of his representatives?? Off the horse's first race of the year (74 Beyer), it's hard to believe that this horse would be tagged for $50K without there being a serious (soundness) issue and the owner being made aware of it.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Unfair how? He's the owner. He's responsible, or at least his racing manager is. You think Asmussen just decided to enter this $700K yearling for $50K without getting the OK from Jackson or one of his representatives?? Off the horse's first race of the year (74 Beyer), it's hard to believe that this horse would be tagged for $50K without there being a serious (soundness) issue and the owner being made aware of it.

Ass told someone the horse sucked and would never be any good entered him for a tag. There is nothing Jackson can do in this situation..He can't demand to see the test results he has to do want the guy who is making him look good tells him to do ..ASS is winning a lot with Curlin I am sure ASS gets to do what he says is in Jackson's best interest..You can't just retire every horse that had an injury.. And his yearling price is kind of irrelavant

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Ass told someone the horse sucked and would never be any good entered him for a tag. There is nothing Jackson can do in this situation..He can't demand to see the test results he has to do want the guy who is making him look good tells him to do ..ASS is winning a lot with Curlin I am sure ASS gets to do what he says is in Jackson's best interest..You can't just retire every horse that had an injury.. And his yearling price is kind of irrelavant

There's nothing Jackson can do? Come on, you're smarter than that. The trainer can't run him there unless the owner lets him. Yes, he's winning with Curlin, but that doesn't mean Asmussen gets to do whatever he wants. Asmussen works for Jackson; it's not the other way around.

I agree that you can't retire every horse that had an injury. That's not the point here. Here's an expensive yearling that ran a 2008 debut race that suggested he's worth far more than $50K unless he had a hole in him. I suppose you think that the suspicious drop in for a tag and the fact that the horse broke down are purely coincidental.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You think Jess Jackson had a friggin clue about one of 100 horses he owns... Totally unfair...What is suppose to do find a nice home for the colt instead of trying to get him back to racing at some level..

why should he, or any owner, get a pass for this? it's crap like this 'oh, too many horses-can't keep track' mindset that has caused a lot of the issues that racing and its' fans are facing today. if he can't pay attention to his stock, then he shouldn't have any! whether he paid $10 or $10 million, if the horse had no business on the track, he shouldn't have been there. the horse was thrown away basically--but since it's owned by curlin's owner, it's ok?!?! bullsh!t.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

There's nothing Jackson can do? Come on, you're smarter than that. The trainer can't run him there unless the owner lets him. Yes, he's winning with Curlin, but that doesn't mean Asmussen gets to do whatever he wants. Asmussen works for Jackson; it's not the other way around.

I agree that you can't retire every horse that had an injury. That's not the point here. Here's an expensive yearling that ran a 2008 debut race that suggested he's worth far more than $50K unless he had a hole in him. I suppose you think that the suspicious drop in for a tag and the fact that the horse broke down are purely coincidental.

So what is a major owner to do perhaps this would suffice:

Hire a Blue ribbon team of vet's
Engage them in a think tank that would analyze each and every horses medical status before said horse was entered.
Do complete medical testing after each and every movement(works or bowel)...

Come on already this horse had an issue but every single horse has an issue and too boot we are speculating that the horse had an issue that caused im to lose his life.

You can't possibly suggest that an owner with 100 head is suppose to be privy to all the medical issues of each and every animal.. Has far as we know.. ASS could have just told Jackson the horses didn't work out and Jess said lose him in a claimer..

So I bought this colt I send him to a quality trainer and he debuts with a 54 beyer and gets dinged up now my trainer after 4 months off gets the colt working again and says maybe we want to just go in claimer with the other dinged horses instead of a MSW.. Who am I to argue I hired the guy because he is suppose to have my best interests at heart and the horses. It's silly if you think I am going to retire him because he was laid up..

I am sorry the horse died but it happens and IMO Jackson is hardly to blame.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You can't possibly suggest that an owner with 100 head is suppose to be privy to all the medical issues of each and every animal.. Has far as we know.. ASS could have just told Jackson the horses didn't work out and Jess said lose him in a claimer..

So I bought this colt I send him to a quality trainer and he debuts with a 54 beyer and gets dinged up now my trainer after 4 months off gets the colt working again and says maybe we want to just go in claimer with the other dinged horses instead of a MSW.. Who am I to argue I hired the guy because he is suppose to have my best interests at heart and the horses. It's silly if you think I am going to retire him because he was laid up..

I am sorry the horse died but it happens and IMO Jackson is hardly to blame.

Assuming for the sake of argument that he has 100 horses in training (not likely), not every horse, especially one purchased for $700K, is running every day. And I as said in an earlier post, either he or his racing manager likely OK'd the horse being dropped for a tag.

The issue is not about retiring the horse; it's about whether the horse was sound to run on the day in question. If not, then the owner always has the option of laying him up to get over the problem. That's why we see layoff lines in DRF every day.

Look, the reason I pointed this one out is because Jackson, in his holier than thou testimony before Congress last week, challenged the industry to look out for the welfare of the horse. All signs indicate that, as it relates to Vinstar, he did not heed his own words. Those in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones (especially given the hypocrisy of him using Asmussen as his trainer).

[freddymo]

If the horse cost 170k or 700k it doesn't mattter.. You are missing the most important point.. His staff and or trainers would not have put the horse in the race if they thought he was not capable of competing and succeeding without incident.. The guy just lost 700k plus 18 months of training and vet fees use common sense did he need the 50k? He was told the horse was OK and that is the important part.. Remember this horse had how many workouts since the layoff without incident?

The last thing a guy needs is a horse to die on him and the thought that he but the horse in the race to hopefully get 50k is nuts

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by freddymo

If the horse cost 170k or 700k it doesn't mattter.. You are missing the most important point.. His staff and or trainers would not have put the horse in the race if they thought he was not capable of competing and succeeding without incident.. The guy just lost 700k plus 18 months of training and vet fees use common sense did he need the 50k? He was told the horse was OK and that is the important part.. Remember this horse had how many workouts since the layoff without incident?

The last thing a guy needs is a horse to die on him and the thought that he but the horse in the race to hopefully get 50k is nuts

All of this is just speculation. (Admittedly, I'm assuming a few things as well.) I know that injuries are a part of racing; the soundest horse can take a bad step, and tragedy can occur. Sometimes accidents happen; sometimes, there are accidents waiting to happen, and this seemed like the latter. In this regard, this situation was reminiscent of the incident when Cadillac Cruiser broke down at Aqueduct last February. He was dropping off a good effort at $25,000 to $7,500 and broke down on the clubhouse turn. Under the cirsumstances, tough to call it strictly an accident.

You mentioned his workouts. Doesn't it raise a red flag that he was shipped to Keeneland from Churchill and that his last two workouts were over the Polytrack rather than a conventional dirt surface? And then he's dropped precipitously in price.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

All of this is just speculation. (Admittedly, I'm assuming a few things as well.) I know that injuries are a part of racing; the soundest horse can take a bad step, and tragedy can occur. Sometimes accidents happen; sometimes, there are accidents waiting to happen, and this seemed like the latter. In this regard, this situation was reminiscent of the incident when Cadillac Cruiser broke down at Aqueduct last February. He was dropping off a good effort at $25,000 to $7,500 and broke down on the clubhouse turn. Under the cirsumstances, tough to call it strictly an accident.

You mentioned his workouts. Doesn't it raise a red flag that he was shipped to Keeneland from Churchill and that his last two workouts were over the Polytrack rather than a conventional dirt surface? And then he's dropped precipitously in price.

The claimer had raced 40 times and they incident is not close to this IMO.

So you want a man who entered the business 20 minutes ago wallet a blazin and someone who knows less about horses then me to be able to figure out and more impotantly be accountable for how and were the horse(700k albatross) is working out? Its the mans hobby he employees what some people think are the most outstanding bloodstock agents(other then DrugS), farm managers, and trainers etc. to run his HOBBY.. Do you want the owner of the Knicks to not let a NBA player play even after a team of doctors and like personnel cleared him to play..

All an owner can do after this occurs is question his employees and suggest they use more common sense protecting his good name and even that is a lot to ask IMO

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

why should he, or any owner, get a pass for this? it's crap like this 'oh, too many horses-can't keep track' mindset that has caused a lot of the issues that racing and its' fans are facing today. if he can't pay attention to his stock, then he shouldn't have any! whether he paid $10 or $10 million, if the horse had no business on the track, he shouldn't have been there. the horse was thrown away basically--but since it's owned by curlin's owner, it's ok?!?! bullsh!t.

The truth of the matter is that the majority of owners don't know what is going on with their horses. They trust their trainer and let him make the decisions. The trainer may not even tell the owner if the horse has a problem

That's not always the case. There are some owners who are very actively involved. There are some trainers that tell their owners everything. They will tell their owners exactly what is wrong with their horse. If a horse comes back from a work with a slightly puffy ankle, they will tell their owners immediately.

I don't know the relationship between Jackson and Asmussen and I don't know how actively Jackson is involved. I don't know if Asmussen tells Jackson when a horse has a problem.

But I would say that in general, when you have one of these big-time, smooth talking trainers working for a really rich guy that doesn't know much about horses, the owner will usually know very little about what is going on physically with his horses.