bad day at CD

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Certainly there is nothing that can completely eliminate the problem, but we could start with drug free race day medications. We all know horses are running when they should not be. Another thing that needs to be done is racing meets need to be scaled back and the yearly number of races run need to be reduced, so when horses are not running because they are in pain they are not forced to run to fill races. race tracks need to support these bans but a reason they put up with drugs is they need all these races to fill and if a little pain killer is needed I don't think they care as long as the races fill.

I think tracks is some states were allowed to get harder and harder, such as California, and in the long run led to training race horses for quarter horse speed which is not a good thing if you have to run more then four hundred yards.

I think trainers should be punished like they are in Hong Kong for drug violations.

I think its ridiculous that horses are hit 30 times down the stretch, its legal now but that does not make it right.

I think the breeding industry is a sham right now, its a meat market mentality that starts when they look at the pedigree match ups right through the two year old sales. I could go on and on.

I think that you like a lot of other people have some reasonable ideas yet you assume a lot and dont take into consideration many things.

There is no legal raceday medication that would have any bearing on horses breaking down. Nice sentiment but pretty much not a factor in horses breaking down,.

You say "we all know horses are running when they arent supposed to be". I say how do you know except in an after the fact, monday morning quarterbacking way? How do you determine what is ok and what isnt? That is a question that trainers ask themselves each day and let me tell you there is no simple solution because as Bigs said before, virtually no horse is 100% everytime. A lot of times horses with chronic issues are the safest ones to run because they seemingly know their limitations and the ones that seem completely sound are the ones that overextend and breakdown.

The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less oportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available.

The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners dont allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out. Look at a guy like Nick Zito and how he has changed his training methods with babies. He used to almost always give them a race first time out which is the way he learned from the trainers in the 60's. But a few years ago he started cranking them up like everybody else because he was losing owners to guys that won with firsters. When established guys like Zito have to change successful training methods in order to keep owners and get horses, you can see that the trend has become the rule. Guys like Charlie Whittingham (for those who arent familiar, he was pretty good) almost never won first time and really didnt even want to, prefering to get horses experience before taking on more advanced rivals. Horses are running as much as they were in the 60's except many of the races are run for no purse in the morning. But since horses are investment tools in many cases there is pressure to not run until they are 99% ready to run their best and then they have to run well as to not diminish "value". Personally I would be very content in giving my horses a race or 2 as two year olds before really cranking them down but the market simply doesnt allow that anymore. Another thing that a trainer has to be concerned with is win % and losing too many prep races is bad for the old percentage.

I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their systemm wont work here.

Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham?

All these ideas are interesting but i have yet to see anything that would serve any direct ability to prevent breakdowns.

[10 pnt move up]

" I say how do you know except in an after the fact"

First hand knowledge, at the time I was young and just thought that's what everyone does. To be fair none of those horses who were given medicines for pain ever broke down.


"The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less opportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available."

yes this is a bit theory but I know, again first hand knowledge, that trainers have entered horses in California to fill for the secretary with full knowledge they were not ready to run.

"The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners don't allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out"

absolutely zero disagreement there, its a win first mentality perpetuated by the media and breeding industry.

"I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their system wont work here."

So we should let trainers who bend the rules skate because we don't have the same purse structure? I say the model we have is broken. There are to many tracks, to many races, the wagering dollar is stretched to thin, yet purses have to go up to make it work for the owners and the trainers to make money. That's broken. But we can just keep raising take out, I am willing to bet Ky is on its way up now that NY just raised there to obscene levels.

"Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham"

To start the cosmetic surgeries should not be allowed. Medications should not be allowed for these two year old in training sales. Maybe stallion restrictions should be considered. Maybe horses should not be inbred like they have been.

I hate the status quo. This will sound sadistic but I want the whole thing to blow up because its broken. From ADW's, to breeding, to regulation, to product, etc etc...its broken.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

" I say how do you know except in an after the fact"

First hand knowledge, at the time I was young and just thought that's what everyone does. To be fair none of those horses who were given medicines for pain ever broke down.


"The idea that scaling back racing schedules will lower the % of breakdowns is interesting yet probably not valid. Less races makes less opportunities to make money which leads to increased pressure to make the spots that are available."

yes this is a bit theory but I know, again first hand knowledge, that trainers have entered horses in California to fill for the secretary with full knowledge they were not ready to run.

"The training of horses has changed but not because of the speed of the tracks. The training of young horses has changed dramatically because owners don't allow horses to race themselves into shape and they reward trainers whose horses come out running first time out"

absolutely zero disagreement there, its a win first mentality perpetuated by the media and breeding industry.

"I would love to have rules like Hong Kong but only if we had a setup like they have with laws that back up the rules. If we had one training track, 2 days of races a week for 9 months out of the year and purses that averaged $130000 per race with high tech security and vets that worked for the association no problem. until we do their system wont work here."

So we should let trainers who bend the rules skate because we don't have the same purse structure? I say the model we have is broken. There are to many tracks, to many races, the wagering dollar is stretched to thin, yet purses have to go up to make it work for the owners and the trainers to make money. That's broken. But we can just keep raising take out, I am willing to bet Ky is on its way up now that NY just raised there to obscene levels.

"Exactly what would you do to make the breeding industry not a sham"

To start the cosmetic surgeries should not be allowed. Medications should not be allowed for these two year old in training sales. Maybe stallion restrictions should be considered. Maybe horses should not be inbred like they have been.

I hate the status quo. This will sound sadistic but I want the whole thing to blow up because its broken. From ADW's, to breeding, to regulation, to product, etc etc...its broken.

Guys do enter races under pressure from the racing office but it is a stretch to say they are entering sore or horses that should not be running. Usually they hustle to run in a race where you will be 15-1 which is the reason you didnt enter in the first place.

I dont know that the media or breedng industry have as much to do with pressure to win early as does the economics of the business. One of the main reasons that the horseman are united and sticking together on the ADW issue is that we NEED more money while the tracks want more money. Day rates are not covering expenses for most trainers, shipping, feed, and hay expenses are up 30 to 40% but very few of us can raise our day rates because very few owners are willing to lose MORE money, not that I blame them. Therefore people are looking to show off their horses for resale, not necessarily just for for breeding purposes. We understand that everybody is under financial stress but we were in a bad spot before gas was $4.00 a gallon. Some owners simply dont have the time to develop horses like the Phipps. I would probably say most.

I didnt say that trainers should be allowed to bend rules or skate but Hong Kong is a much different situation than we are in here, therefore we cant look to the model or penalty system there as a guide. It is simply too different in terms of setup and the legal system. It would be like imposing NFL franchise regulations on high schools.

I have been in the middle of the road about the surgeries because they may actually help soundness in some ways though they do make it hard no breeders because the real conformation is a bit hidden. I wouldnt cry if they were outlawed but I dont think as poorly about them as much as I used to. Medications at the 2 yo sales have been cut back but to me the simple solution to the 2 year old in training problm is to just not participate very much.