6/14 (CD): Stephen Foster Day

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

North American-breds, yes, several times. North American-trained, no, mainly because it has rarely been tried, if at all. Longchamps, the track where the Arc is run, is a horseshoe-shaped RIGHT-handed track, which is the biggest hurdle for US-types, along with the soft ground that so often turns up for the Arc. US-raced horses never have to turn right-handed at speed, they have never developed the muscles or flexibility on that side (unlike Euro-horses) and would be running with a major disadvantage.

Melbourne based horses float over and go the Sydney way with success all of the time.

The biggest hurdle for US types is their inferiority, not the layout at Longchamp.

The only horse that I can recall who absolutely detested going right handed is Vroom Vroom from the David Hayes stable a couple of years back. He has since died of a heart attack, but that horse was a terror going left-handed, and absolutely useless going right handed.

Vroom Vroom dies during trackwork

Monday, 28 August 2006:

David Hayes lost one of his main Cox Plate hopes when Vroom Vroom suffered a massive haemorrhage during trackwork at Lindsay Park on Monday and died.

"He wasn't working particularly fast either," Hayes said of the bold frontrunning imported six-year-old.

"He didn't drop but gradually slowed down, collapsed and died.

"He was one of my main Cox Plate hopes."

Vroom Vroom was a Group One winner of the Argentine Guineas and had won three of his first four starts in Argentina before being sent to Hayes in Hong Kong.

He failed to adapt to the right-handed direction of racing there, being placed just once in nine Hong Kong starts.

Hayes brought him to Melbourne where he excelled the left-handed way, winning four races including the Listed Auckland Racing Club Stakes (1600m) at Flemington.

The gelding ran third to Our Smoking Joe in the St George Stakes (1800m) at Caulfield and a close fourth to Roman Arch in the Australian Cup (2000m) at Flemington.

Vroom Vroom hadn't raced since finishing fourth to Cosmo Bulk in the Singapore International Cup (2000m) at Kranji on May 14.

He was due to resume in Adelaide on Saturday week.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

The biggest hurdle for US types is their inferiority, not the layout at Longchamp.

[/i]

This is stupid. To suggest that a US horse would not be at a distinct disadvantge running at Longchamp is insane. The thought that US horses are inferior to foreign horses is silly and simply not true.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

in turf races?

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is stupid. To suggest that a US horse would not be at a distinct disadvantge running at Longchamp is insane. The thought that US horses are inferior to foreign horses is silly and simply not true.

Our top class grass horses are inferior to top class European horses on the turf. Not even a contest.

That's like saying our sprinters in the Olympics aren't superior to the Polish 100 meter runners.

Different ballgame

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Our top class grass horses are inferior to top class European horses on the turf. Not even a contest.

That's like saying our sprinters in the Olympics aren't superior to the Polish 100 meter runners.

Different ballgame

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

[Danzig]

i just don't know that a horse who is used to running on hard, fast tracks can then run over a hard turf track and then be set to run on the mush overseas. seriously, the cut in the ground over there is nothing to sneeze at. and it matters tremendously. even if curlin ran at arlington or monmouth, in no way would that course compare to what he'd be on in france.

but good luck to him and his connections. they will surely need it. just remember horses like george washington, who look like champs on the turf over there, but look like fish out of water here in the classic on dirt.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

If Barbaro could've, then Big Brown surely can. Maybe they should point him for the Arc.

I mean, he won his maiden on grass by a pole beating a bunch of shitboxes.

Barbaro's turf races were against shitty competition, and people act like he could have won the Epsom Derby off of the Delaware Futurity.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

If Barbaro could've, then Big Brown surely can. Maybe they should point him for the Arc.

I mean, he won his maiden on grass by a pole beating a bunch of shitboxes.

Barbaro's turf races were against shitty competition, and people act like he could have won the Epsom Derby off of the Delaware Futurity.

Barbaro was a VERY good turf horse. I think they should put Big Brown back on the turf - easier to keep him sound that way and he's already proven himself on the dirt enough stud-wise.

[jcs11204]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Barbaro was a VERY good turf horse. I think they should put Big Brown back on the turf - easier to keep him sound that way and he's already proven himself on the dirt enough stud-wise.

big brown is a decent horse in a horrible crop... last year hes not even top 5.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

I find it hard to believe that Curlin will be as good on turf as he is on dirt, and I'm as big of a Smart Strike on the turf fan as anyone. He's been trained his entire life to run on one surface, and how many American horses do we see running 115+ Beyers on the grass? It'll take at least that to compete with the Europeans on grass. He could be a very good turf horse and still be shy of what it would take to be competitive in a race like the Arc.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I find it hard to believe that Curlin will be as good on turf as he is on dirt, and I'm as big of a Smart Strike on the turf fan as anyone. He's been trained his entire life to run on one surface, and how many American horses do we see running 115+ Beyers on the grass? It'll take at least that to compete with the Europeans on grass. He could be a very good turf horse and still be shy of what it would take to be competitive in a race like the Arc.

What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

What does the 115 Beyer have to do with it? Beyers are lower on turf (and less relevant) and they don't make beyers for euro races so I have no idea what those horses are running. I also doubt Curlin will be as good on dirt, but I'm not going to rule out the possibility of it happening because it would add some more excitement to a very dull year.

When European horses come run in the BC Turf (mind you we don't always get their best), they often run 110+ Beyers. If you don't think they're running at least the equivalent of that in the Arc.. I don't know what to say.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

In general, obviously, you're right. But there's nothing to say that America can't produce a grass horse who could compete with the euros. If somehow Curlin ended up being just as good on grass as he is on dirt he could probably compete. Personally, I think Barbaro could've won some big European turf races.

there have been many horses over the years that were bred here, and lit the place on fire running on turf overseas. we can produce them, we just don't know what to do with them after, other than sell them to foreign interests who know what they're looking for!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

Our top class grass horses are inferior to top class European horses on the turf. Not even a contest.

That's like saying our sprinters in the Olympics aren't superior to the Polish 100 meter runners.

Different ballgame

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero.

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Scurlogue Champ

She was fairly common over in France... Not terrible, but not clashing heads with the best.

i think it has to do mostly with the cut in the ground--they want it VERY soft over there, and i would think they send those who don't like it that way over here, where they can get a much firmer course.
i'd imagine they'd relish the turf here on the days we take off due to weather. and i don't think we take off due to the safety issue-it's more the fear of tearing up the course in the soft going, and not having anything to run on in the days to come.
racing over there is completely different, in that they have short festivals, no worries about keeping a turf course viable for a few months like we have over here.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Filly and Mare Turf winner was imported and made her American debut at Belmont Spring last year.

Our turf horses are lucky to finish 9th with a perfect trip when they go long in Dubai each year.

And our horses rarely lose the dirt races there. There are different types of racing and to say our horses are inferior based upon distance turf races is wrong.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They are vastly superior on dirt - that seems as obvious as them being vastly inferior going long on the turf.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since the majority of our important racing has been on dirt and the euros almost never beat us there couldnt you say that they are inferior to us? As a matter of fact we beat them a hell of a lot more on the turf than they beat us on the dirt. I have seen lots of superior euros come here and lose. I have also seen lots of mediocre euros come here and improve, often bleeders due to lasix use. Are they superior also? We ran 4 BC races on the turf last year in soggy conditions that should have favored the euros yet they won zero. Of the last 13 BC turf races they have won 4, hardly dominant. I remember a horse named Var who was just a horse over here, was sent to France and became the top rated sprinter in Europe. Turf horses in this country are still not really desired and are considered 2nd class citizens at least until they show they can be stakes horses. to be fair there are a whole lot more good American turf horses than there are european dirt horses. If dirt racing was eliminated in the US and the breeders and trainers concentrated strictly on turf racing, the euros would soon be second class. And that is actually a plausible situation.

I can't argue with your points here, especially the last sentence.

But I must stick to my guns in saying that their top class on turf are superior to our top class on turf. I know the statistics from the Breeders' Cup, and last year's results were baffling to me.

I think a good example is Powerscourt coming over and making Kitten's Joy look like a crow in the Arlington Million. That was a horse that was third string for Coolmore, and absolutely stroked that race two years in a row.

On certain days, we can beat them on our home turf. But overall, I am strongly convinced that they are much better than our bunch.