Best broodmare (revisited)

slotdirt · #1 08-10-2006, 11:32 AM

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

miraja2 · #2 08-10-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Cajungator26 · #3 08-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Tinner's Way was a spectacular racehorse, but he hasn't done much in the shed, unfortunately. By far, my favorite Secretariat son is Innkeeper.

#4 08-10-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

Cajungator26 · #5 08-10-2006, 04:10 PM

Stupid question... but if I wanted to go to the OBS on August 21, am I allowed to go? In other words, can the public attend?

#6 08-10-2006, 04:11 PM

Yes its open to the public. All public auctions are.

Cajungator26 · #7 08-10-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

Yes its open to the public. All public auctions are.

Sorry... wasn't sure if it was or not. I've never been to one before. If you wanted to bid on something, what do you need to do in order to be a part of that?

miraja2 · #8 08-10-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

True, but there are plenty of stallions who were so impressive on the track (Spectacular Bid etc.) that they were given their shot at the best mares early in their stud careers and yet didn't produce squat.

Cajungator26 · #9 08-10-2006, 04:19 PM

The Bid was another example of a good broodmare sire.

#10 08-10-2006, 04:22 PM

If you wanted to bid you would have to open up a line of credit with the auction house, etc.

The Bid, in my opinion, is a very underrated broodmare sire. I love to see him in that spot. And trust me, I will never take away from Secretariat's accomplishments with his daughters! Love him...

slotdirt · #11 08-10-2006, 04:25 PM

What were the progeny earnings of Secretariat? Also remember that he didn't get to stand quite as long as a lot of great stallions did (Storm Cat or Cozzene, for example). Secretariat was the same age as Pleasant Tap or Red Ransom or Royal Academy are now when he passed in 1989.

miraja2 · #12 08-10-2006, 04:36 PM

Balletto,

Holy crap! I just clicked on your myspace link. Are you seriously just 18? If so, how the hell do you know so much about racing and pedigree stuff? I'm impressed.

miraja2 · #13 08-10-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

The Bid was another example of a good broodmare sire.

Yes, but my point was simply that he is not in the same league as Sec in terms of being a broodmare sire even though he also saw the top mares. Sec also sired a HOY in Lady's Secret and a multiple classic winner in Risen Star, while The Bid never approached that.
My point wasn't really that the Bid was a complete failure or anything like that, but simply that Secretariat's remarkable success wasn't just due to the quality of the mares he was seeing.

Cajungator26 · #14 08-10-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yes, but my point was simply that he is not in the same league as Sec in terms of being a broodmare sire even though he also saw the top mares. Sec also sired a HOY in Lady's Secret and a multiple classic winner in Risen Star, while The Bid never approached that.
My point wasn't really that the Bid was a complete failure or anything like that, but simply that Secretariat's remarkable success wasn't just due to the quality of the mares he was seeing.

I'm not arguing with that. I agree completely.

Downthestretch55 · #15 08-10-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Mira,
Both you and Balletto know a lot about peds.
So, here's something that I'm really interested in finding the answer to.
As some folks here know, my son is a geneticist working on his post doc in developmental heart research. To me, a few of mine have Secretariat in their lines.
Anyway...the question. Was it Blue Larkspur that threw the mutant gene for the enlarged heart? I think so, but my son and I have gone round and round on this. Your input would be greatly appreciated to resolve this developmental biology debate. What do you think?

btw, Alydar was a better broodmare sire than either Spectacular Bid or Affirmed imho.
Thanks,
DTS

slotdirt · #16 08-10-2006, 04:47 PM

Alydar...another horse who really didn't get to leave his mark on the breed...

#17 08-10-2006, 04:58 PM

ALYDAR! My all time favorite broodmare sire! L-O-V-E him!

And my first reaction to your question would be yes, Blue Larkspur, but I hate commenting on something I dont feel im educated enough in.

Downthestretch55 · #18 08-10-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

ALYDAR! My all time favorite broodmare sire! L-O-V-E him!

And my first reaction to your question would be yes, Blue Larkspur, but I hate commenting on something I dont feel im educated enough in.

Balletto,
If you look at the pics I sent you (if you haven't deleted them), both the colt with the white star and three white socks, and the yearling filly, Darlin' by Day, are line bred 3X3 to Alydar.
Alydar is one of my all time favorites also, as if you couldn't tell.
DTS

Cajungator26 · #19 08-10-2006, 05:10 PM

This is interesting...

Secretariat was a phenom. He was able to run the times and attain the speed he did because he was trained by one of the best trainers in the world, Lucien Lauren. He also had the heart and the will to win. But he had one advantage that nobody knew of at the time. When Secretariat was put down the autopsy showed that is heart weighed close to 22 pounds,the average Thoroughbred heart weighs 9 lbs. Secretariat's heart was all in porportion, not a mutation. The mutation large heart was found in the horse Eclipse at autopsy in 1789. Eclipse's heart weighed 14 lbs. We now know by research and the hard work of scientists and geneticist like Marianna Haun, that horses carry a gene for a large heart. It is passed through the X chromosome in the mare. Measurements of more than 400 horses with a ECG has found that the X-Factor is 100% consistent. It is possible to track the large heart from sire to daughter to granddaughter and grandson and to great granddaughter and great grandson. The heart scores on certain lines are 100% consistent. These lines come from Princequillo, War Admiral, Blue Larkspur, and Mahmoud.

We obviously know that Secretariat possessed the large heart gene. His heart was larger than any other TB on record. And we know that he got his large heart from Princequillo. A horse's heart is measured by a electrocardiogram and given a "heart score". That phrase was coined only 40 years ago by an Australian researcher named Dr. James Steel. In his research Dr.Steel ranks heart scores according to size. A score of 103 is considered small. A medium size heart is scored from 104-116. 117-120 and above is considered large. The Largest heart in his study was from the Thoroughbred Champion Key to the Mint. He carried the Princequello heart, and rated a heart score of 157-160. Most of Princequello's hearts were between 147 and 160. The three other "superhearts" were from War Admiral, Blue Larkspur, and Mahmoud. They had a heart score of 140-150. A heart score of 140 and above is considered very large and generally found in very successful racehorses.

Marianna Haun says in her book "The X Factor" that even though there is no heart score on Secretariat, based on the weight of his heart at autopsy his estimated heart score would have been 180. There has not been any heart score even near that size. She also states that if Secretariat's heart hadnt been so far out of the norm, they might not have ever discovered what they have about the genetic mutation that produces a high performance heart.

Just until recently it was thought that the sire was the one responsible for his offspring's success. The racing industry has judged a sire by his male offspring for hundreds of years. Great Thoroughbreds were thought to be busts because their sons never produced winners. But the large heart is passed to the foals by the dam. The TB Weekend Surprise is the daughter of Secretariat. Weekend Surprises' dam was Lassie Dear. She produced all winners, including her daughter who produced Horse of the Year A.P.Indy and Summer Squall. The exception to this however was ManO'War, who was fortunate enough to be bred to a mare whos heart was actually larger than his own. The mare was Brushup and she produced War Admiral. Seattle Slew, Cigar, and Silver Charm all have that heart line.Therefore ManO'War was considered a great sire, although it was his dam that passed on the large heart gene.

Throughout my research I have discovered that ManO'War's trainer Louis Feustel, never would let the jockey give him full rein. His reasoning here was to save his horse and not push him if not necessary. ManO'War did possess the large heart gene but I feel that even if he was given full rein he could not have maintained the stamina that Secretariat possessed. Through the strategies of Louis Feustal, ManO'War's legacy is cemented forever. The interesting thing about Secretariat is, in the Belmont, Jockey Ron Turcotte said he was along for the ride. The horse did everything on his own. He set a new world record that still stands, he beat extremely good competition by 31 lengths, and won the Triple Crown. We all wonder what Secretariat could have done if he was actually "asked". Like ManO'War before him Secretariat's legacy is cemented in history. Secretariats' rival in all three Triple Crown races was Sham. Sham's heart was weighed at autopsy at 18lbs. The second largest on record. He lost to Secretariat all three times. At the '73 Belmont, Sham tried in vain to keep pace with Secretariat but to no avail. Even with an 18 pound heart and tremendous will to beat his rival, Sham could not muster the stamina. Sham finished last and never raced again.

miraja2 · #20 08-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mira,
Both you and Balletto know a lot about peds.
So, here's something that I'm really interested in finding the answer to.
As some folks here know, my son is a geneticist working on his post doc in developmental heart research. To me, a few of mine have Secretariat in their lines.
Anyway...the question. Was it Blue Larkspur that threw the mutant gene for the enlarged heart? I think so, but my son and I have gone round and round on this. Your input would be greatly appreciated to resolve this developmental biology debate. What do you think?

btw, Alydar was a better broodmare sire than either Spectacular Bid or Affirmed imho.
Thanks,
DTS

I will defer to Balletto or Pedigree Ann for this one. You might want to take a look at Bill Nack's Secretariat book too, if you haven't already. He provides a TON of info on Big Red's pedigree, and it is just a really good book.