Best broodmare (revisited)

miraja2 · #1 08-10-2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

Are we talking best mares currently producing or best broodmares of all time?

For me, almost even more important than being a producer of 5 G1 winners, is being able to produce stakes winners who inturn produce stakes winners. You can be a broodmare of the year but not necessarily be a "bluehen" in my book. Its all about creating a fountain-head of stakes winners that carries over generations.

Yes I suppose these are two different discussions. In terms of what her offspring have accomplished on the track (not in the shed) I think she is the best "currently producing" mare and may begining to merit discussion among the best of all time. Producing two different BC winners is amazing enough. Then when you add her other quality offspring she amazes me, and she isn't even done!! Who knows what a great horse like Cacique will accomplish the remainder of the year and what else she will produce.

#2 08-10-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yes I suppose these are two different discussions. In terms of what her offspring have accomplished on the track (not in the shed) I think she is the best "currently producing" mare and may begining to merit discussion among the best of all time. Producing two different BC winners is amazing enough. Then when you add her other quality offspring she amazes me, and she isn't even done!! Who knows what a great horse like Cacique will accomplish the remainder of the year and what else she will produce.

No question she's paving her way to be a breed-shaping mare. I would say her successes in the shed over-shadow even Toussaud.

Besides those two, another one to watch is Serena's Song-- 3 Graded winners, 1 stakes winner and one stakes-placed winner from 6 foal to race.

A mare, who in my opinion deserves reines designation especially when compared to Dear Birdie, is La Affirmed. She may be the newest member of the bluehen ranks.

La Affirmed is still in production for Brushwood, I believe. She's an '83 Affirmed mare out of the Round Table mare, La Mesa. She is tail-female to Busanda, the dam of Buckpasser, which is one of the strongest branches of the La Troienne clan.

La Affirmed is the dam of multiple G3 winner Caress (won over males), G3 winner Country Cat, G2 winner Della Francesca, G3 winner Bernstein, and G3 placed Unify.

But more impressively, in my opinion, she's the granddam of G1 winner Sky Mesa, G3 winner Wiseman's Ferry, G2-placed Monthir, stakes-placed Mogador, and stakes-placed Quite Rightly.

Her daughters are producing extremely well and her sons and grandsons are making an impact in the shed. Its still a little early to give her all the glory, but I think she will be one of the new inductees of bluehens.

Here's a link to her page from last year's sept. sale where her daughter sold. http://www.keeneland.com/sales/sep05/pdfs/261.pdf And this page is always growing.

slotdirt · #3 08-10-2006, 11:32 AM

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

miraja2 · #4 08-10-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Cajungator26 · #5 08-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Tinner's Way was a spectacular racehorse, but he hasn't done much in the shed, unfortunately. By far, my favorite Secretariat son is Innkeeper.

#6 08-10-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

Cajungator26 · #7 08-10-2006, 04:10 PM

Stupid question... but if I wanted to go to the OBS on August 21, am I allowed to go? In other words, can the public attend?

#8 08-10-2006, 04:11 PM

Yes its open to the public. All public auctions are.

miraja2 · #9 08-10-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

True, but there are plenty of stallions who were so impressive on the track (Spectacular Bid etc.) that they were given their shot at the best mares early in their stud careers and yet didn't produce squat.

Cajungator26 · #10 08-10-2006, 04:19 PM

The Bid was another example of a good broodmare sire.

Downthestretch55 · #11 08-10-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Mira,
Both you and Balletto know a lot about peds.
So, here's something that I'm really interested in finding the answer to.
As some folks here know, my son is a geneticist working on his post doc in developmental heart research. To me, a few of mine have Secretariat in their lines.
Anyway...the question. Was it Blue Larkspur that threw the mutant gene for the enlarged heart? I think so, but my son and I have gone round and round on this. Your input would be greatly appreciated to resolve this developmental biology debate. What do you think?

btw, Alydar was a better broodmare sire than either Spectacular Bid or Affirmed imho.
Thanks,
DTS

slotdirt · #12 08-10-2006, 04:47 PM

Alydar...another horse who really didn't get to leave his mark on the breed...

#13 08-10-2006, 04:58 PM

ALYDAR! My all time favorite broodmare sire! L-O-V-E him!

And my first reaction to your question would be yes, Blue Larkspur, but I hate commenting on something I dont feel im educated enough in.

miraja2 · #14 08-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Mira,
Both you and Balletto know a lot about peds.
So, here's something that I'm really interested in finding the answer to.
As some folks here know, my son is a geneticist working on his post doc in developmental heart research. To me, a few of mine have Secretariat in their lines.
Anyway...the question. Was it Blue Larkspur that threw the mutant gene for the enlarged heart? I think so, but my son and I have gone round and round on this. Your input would be greatly appreciated to resolve this developmental biology debate. What do you think?

btw, Alydar was a better broodmare sire than either Spectacular Bid or Affirmed imho.
Thanks,
DTS

I will defer to Balletto or Pedigree Ann for this one. You might want to take a look at Bill Nack's Secretariat book too, if you haven't already. He provides a TON of info on Big Red's pedigree, and it is just a really good book.

Downthestretch55 · #15 08-10-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

I will defer to Balletto or Pedigree Ann for this one. You might want to take a look at Bill Nack's Secretariat book too, if you haven't already. He provides a TON of info on Big Red's pedigree, and it is just a really good book.

Thanks, I have Bill Nack's book. A great read for those that haven't.

slotdirt · #16 08-10-2006, 04:59 PM

I'm confused....where are Blue Larkspur and Secretariat related?

Cajungator26 · #17 08-10-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto

No question she's paving her way to be a breed-shaping mare. I would say her successes in the shed over-shadow even Toussaud.

Besides those two, another one to watch is Serena's Song-- 3 Graded winners, 1 stakes winner and one stakes-placed winner from 6 foal to race.

A mare, who in my opinion deserves reines designation especially when compared to Dear Birdie, is La Affirmed. She may be the newest member of the bluehen ranks.

La Affirmed is still in production for Brushwood, I believe. She's an '83 Affirmed mare out of the Round Table mare, La Mesa. She is tail-female to Busanda, the dam of Buckpasser, which is one of the strongest branches of the La Troienne clan.

La Affirmed is the dam of multiple G3 winner Caress (won over males), G3 winner Country Cat, G2 winner Della Francesca, G3 winner Bernstein, and G3 placed Unify.

But more impressively, in my opinion, she's the granddam of G1 winner Sky Mesa, G3 winner Wiseman's Ferry, G2-placed Monthir, stakes-placed Mogador, and stakes-placed Quite Rightly.

Her daughters are producing extremely well and her sons and grandsons are making an impact in the shed. Its still a little early to give her all the glory, but I think she will be one of the new inductees of bluehens.

Here's a link to her page from last year's sept. sale where her daughter sold. http://www.keeneland.com/sales/sep05/pdfs/261.pdf And this page is always growing.

La Affirmed is one of my faves! She seems to be a very good cross with Storm Cat. My fave son of hers though is none of the above listed... I like Alajwad who was a 5.5 million dollar purchase at the Keeneland September sale. He didn't do very much on the track, but he is quite the looker.